Are there going to be any creature stats at all in this book and if not, why did they decide to have two books when the GM will need this info (and they never put it in two books before)?

Thanks!

1 Player's Guide

1 GM's Guide

1 Creature's Guide (-> NPCs & Monsters)

Released "soon" (they are still on "the boat")

As to why, i don't know, but i can guess

Yeah, I am sorry I asked. I got to thinking about it and realized it does not matter. The days of this game being in one book and being user friendly are gone and I should just move on. At least our group enjoys DH and Rogue Trader. Don't get me wrong, I like new things, but I don't like new things that jack us around.

You got the wrong idea or feeling. This game rocks

You have 2 options :

- starting with the Core Set and getting add-ons boxes if you feel like it,

- getting the Guides (and maybe Vaults if you feel like it) when they are available.

Actually what he means is that if he goes with option 2, he has to buy 3 books.

GM Guide, Player's Guide, Bestiary Guide.

While, if he got one of those 40k rpg books, he would only have to buy 1 book, containing all the PC rules, GM info, and Creature stats. I think he has a point.

I'm not sure what you're whining about to be honest. The GM guide contains all of the information in the Tome of Adventure book from the core set (which you can read yourself in the news item about the guide), it thus contains all of the info on monsters that is in the core set. If you want even more, then you buy the Creature guide.

Comparing to the 40k-rpg's I'd say that the WHFRP core set contains more monsters/enemies than any of the three 40 core rulebooks do. Take the Deathwatch rulebook as an example, it has rules for 4 varieties of Chaos, Tau and Tyranid opponents (12 different in all). That is hardly less than what is in the WHFRP core set.

Actually it says the guide has nearly all the information from the ToA, and checking the contents pdf preview, it does seem like the actual monster stats aren't in the GM's guide, however, I'm still not sure what the OP is complaining about, if you want everything all in one purchase you buy the core set.

The guides and vaults are either for people who only want to have a specific sub set of all the data (such as a player only getting the player's guide/vault) or a group that wants to try the game without all the cits, in which case you get the three books. I would think FFG have modelled the 3 book strategy to mirror certain other games that are out on the market currently.

I don't see many groups buying the GM's vault, unless the group started off buying the guides only but then wanted to move to chit-based play? I guess also because it is split into three succinct parts it is easier for each member of the group to buy their own bits (GM buys the GM and creature parts, player buy the player parts), as based on the forums output some of the earlier dissenters of the 3rd ed were commenting that the core set was too expensive for a single person (invariably the GM) to buy.

People have now got various options for how they want to get in to this game and FFG have tried to offer up options to fit as many different group dynamics as they can; there is always going to be something that doesn't suit each individual need, for instance, because FFG have come up with the guide concept, it now means I'll need to buy both the creature guide and the creature vault, whereas if the guide model had not been created it is safe to assume that the creature pack would have been a single (and probably slightly cheaper overall) release, with both info and chits all in one pack, but I don't feel jacked around because it worked out differently, it's just one of those things.

The days of it being in one book have gone, but so what, and I don't see where the lack of user friendly-ness comes into it?

I am sorry, guys. I should have specified my expectations for the game:

I am not interested in the game with the cardboard pieces (except the stand ups and the dice, which look cool) or the cards. I am not going to even get into it why that way of playing Warhammer does not appeal to me (if you like it, then that rocks for you). What brought me back to this part of the forum was the opportunity to play this new Warhammer without the puzzle pieces or the cards, but still be able to use the cool die mechanics.

I just did not understand why there needed to be two different books for what the GM has to start off with?

I am not hear to trash the new game or to say 2nd ed is better (which is what we still play) but ****, it is really outdated compared to Dark Heresy & Rogue Trader (since half of our group are women, we have not tried Death Watch ). And like what was mentioned above, all three 40K books have all the core rules in one book. So, it kind of makes WFRP look like some elitest game (after all, I can get a 40K core book on Amazon for $35-37, but all three of the WFRP 3rd Core books are 90 total, then you need two sets of dice fore each player.... sigh).

In that case, i think the answer to your question is that for someone like me who already has the core set (and is happy with the chits) FFG wanted to provide me with a creature guide/vault that has new material in it for me, but doesn't contain lots of material that I already own (i.e. the GM stuff)

If they had combined the GM stuff and the creature stuff into one book, I would have had to pay an increased cost (as that book/vault would invaraibly have cost more) to obtain something that i already own a large amount of the material contained.

The way FFG have split it means i can only buy the creature relevant products and therefore not waste my money.

WFRP V3 is certainly a different kind of role playing game to lots of others on the market and therefore it selling model will invariably be different as well. I'm not sure trying to compare it to the 40k books will get anywhere, because the mechanics and selling model is fundementally different.

Perhaps FFG will release the guides as PDFs at some point, at a reduced cost, so that may be an option if you are balking at the current full cost of the guides, who knows.

happy gaming.

Pumpkin, thank you! That answered the question for me.

I believe most of the products can be purchased as PDFs currently. Thus the books when they do come out should be so as well.

I do not know or think they have the cards/chits included but it certainly might be a more economical way of getting what you need.

I hate to draw parallels to other gaming models, but the Players Guide, GMs Guide and Monster Manual have been a 'holy trinity' for a number of systems. Just saying its more than obscure/odd to criticize FFG or anyone for that model considering that its been the de-facto fantasy standard for a while.

shinma said:

Its a very good set up.

pumpkin said:

Well, the Enemies and Adversaries chapter has a subsection named Enemy statistics, so I wouldn't be too worried about that. Just buying Player's + GM's guide + dice will be enough to play WHFRP "lite". It will be a bit more costly than buying the core rulebook for DH/RT/DW, but considering that you also get the rules from 4 expansions (Adv. toolkit, GM kit, WoM and SoF) I'd say you get more value for the money.

shinma said:

I see you're point, but WFRP had been an exception to that and sort of is if you have the box set. My comment was because both of those books were thin compared to the player's (so why not combine them?), but as it was pointed out, I am not the target audience for those hardback books.

It is alright. I really like the 40K stuff we have been playing and it still fills the need that WFRP left.

My two brass pennies:

* WFRP3 is set up D&D-style with a players handbook, a dungeonmaster's guide and a monster manual. There's no reason for players to have the second two books is the reason D&D did it and the same reason why WFRP is set up that way. Nothing new here really. The core set has all three books too.

The CORE SET's counting chits are as follows:

* WFRP3's puzzle pieces are exactly the same as D&D's 3 successes before 3 failures set up. Nothing new under Morrsleib in this regards. More ways to use them in the GM's toolkit (and some dang neat ideas for doing that_)

* WFRP3's counter tokens are the same as D&D's "per day/per encounter/at will" ability trackers. Nothing new under Myrmidia's shield here.

* The cardboard standups are miniatures. Some people prefer tiny lead minis that they never get around to painting (like we used to) We've moved to them instead of tiny lead mini's.

So, there's nothing different' or revolutionary about its presentation or any of the parts in this game. The dice system is flippin' cool and I feel cheated when I have to go back and play d20 games...

Welcome to the family

jh

Dustin said:

I'm trying to sort out why you're posting.

You ask if there will be information on 'monsters' in the GMs guide? There is an adversary stat section.

You ask why there are two books? Did you LOOK at the page counts? The Creature Vault has over 300 pages of stuff in a hardback, and the GMs guide while slimmer is still over 200. Printing small bibles capable of braining children if they fall off shelves isn't really how its done in the biz. They printed a 'holy trinity' (PH, GH, Monstrous Manual) as per standard practice, with all the non-chit information of 3 expansions worth (Adventuer's Tollkit, Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith) on top of the core set and then volumes in the case of the creature guide.

So now you want to know why you're not the target audience? ... ... I got nothing. Enjoy whatever it is you're playing.

Both the monster and GM's books together would be the same size as the Player's book. I am not sure where shinma got the page count from, I got mine from Amazon (is that info wrong, btw?)

I was curious why they had made that decision. That got answered. The answer to that question left me feeling like what I was hoping out of the newer version would be a good game without the cards and cardboard pieces (I still like the dice idea and the symbols that could lead to different narative results). But, it sounds like those hard back books are aimed at compiling all the rule books from the box sets mostly. If that is the case, then I don't see me buying this game.

If the game runs smooth without the chits and cards, then I might try it out and put up with the fact that I have to buy three books instead of two. I feel that 2nd ed is really outdated anyway. But, until I can see a play report or at least look at the books in person, then I won't know (which is why I was hoping someone from the company might chime in this conversation). When I heard about the hardback books coming out, I thought it was a comprimise to appease both crowds, but I think I got my info wrong.

I don't mean to offend anyone who enjoys the box set stuff. I was not trying to bring up a minor question to attack this game. This game has not sold too well in the OKC area, so I could not find someone to run a demo for me to see how the game is even played with the cardboard pieces and cards (I did read the pdf for the main rules from the box set). I have not been impressed with what I have seen on YouTube.

and when I say impressed, I mean that I don't think using the cardboard pieces and action like cards appeals to my style of playing.

Hey Dustin. No prob with the questions. Sometimes we get testy around here after the whole "it's a boardgame" accusation by all the old 2e'ers who just need something to hate.

I started out playing without the chits. I just liked using paper (I've been gaming since '81 afterall), but some of my players really liked the little counters and stuff. I also thought that the puzzle piece counter was dumb too when I first started, but now I really like having it around. It's made social skill checks count for a lot more. Before the counter, a lot of players playing COMBAT characters could dominate a social encounter..now you can really see when a player SUCKS in his fellowship..that's when the big people (Envoy's and whatnot) push the little children aside and get to start doing the talking.

I think 4e D&D was onto something when they said, "3 successes before 2 fails" and whatnot. WFRP evolved that into a progress tracker like a tug of war..if you've got someone doing skill checks who shouldn't be, there really are no more "lucky rolls." This has REALLY helped out skill-based characters (as I mention above).

It took me awhile to get used to it because I've been set in my old D&D ways for so long. Now there's only a couple things that annoy me about the game (the way equipment is /not/ listed mainly), but I'm liking it.

jh

This is an oddball comparison and I'm not trying to draw parallels between the systems, but I sort of look at it like this:

D&D 4e was released without cards/chits/etc but could definitely use them and now has them available.

WH3 was released without books summarizing everything on the cards/chits/etc and now has them available.

Like both were trying to get to the same place user access-wise (access, not system) but approached it from opposite ends of the pool.

Emirikol said:

The "new" 2nd editioners hate towards 3rd, is the "lack" of careers, the cost of the products or a combo. Think most have given up on the boardgame accusations, due to the saner ones seeing it's not so

When the last 3 products (Dwarves, Witches, and the War expansion), I'm guessing "only" the cost remains. Granted, at that time it will be fairly hefty... but guess the guides will deal with that.

Dustin said:

You're not offending me (and I hope I'm not offending you), I just think that you've totally misunderstood the new hardback books. They are aimed at presenting the core set rules in a different way, that appeals to people who want rules in books rather than on cards. What was it you thought would be in the hardbacks that make you disappointed, if you don't mind me asking?

And the part about having to buy three books is just not true. You can play the game fine without the Creature guide, we are playing it now and that works just fine. I'll say it again, the GM guide includes monster stats, it says so in the index that you can look at yourself on the support page.

You have to buy 2 books, which may be a bit more expensive than for the 40k games (which I like a lot as well), but you do get a lot more content (since, as I already pointed out, the books contain rules from the core set+4 expansions). The comparison might be a bit unfair but you won't be able to buy DH+Inq. handbook+Disciples+Creat. Anathema+Ascension cheaper than the GM+Player WHFRP guides. You do have a point if you never buy extra source books though (I guess you're playing DH with the core rulebook only).

gruntl said:

I completely agree with this (including not being offended, if thats of any relevance) except the point on monster stats. The enemy statistics section of the GM guide is two pages, no more, so it is highly likely that this is equivalent to info on pages 45,46,47 of ToA, so I personally don't think the GM's guide has any info on monsters, in any great detail. perhaps they appear in an appendix or something, but everything else I've read seems to suggest creature info is in the creature guide only.

The proof will be in the pudding and perhaps I'm wrong, but regardless, I think Dustin can get the kind of game he wants from just buying the 3 guides, but I think he'll need all three......

What I am hoping for with the hardback books is to be able to play the game without the cards and chits and still get a great experience out of the game. But if the game needs those components to truely get the 3rd ed feel, then that will most likely not work.

The idea of those dice creating a more unique narrative outcome as opposed to the standard "success or failure" really peeked my curiosity.

The dice pool is great. I do love the way it fits into the roleplaying, as opposed to detracting from it.

It's a shame you can't test out the game, as it takes a few sessions to 'unlearn' the way we expect role-playing games to operate. I would not be in the least bit surprised that if you were to start playing it without the cards & chits, and slowly introduce them as you realise how helpfull they can be. It's been an unmitigated hit with my group, in spite of some initial reservations (from both myself and my players).