Hi all,

does anybody know how melee attacks with a weapon that has a range work in fact? The Neural Whip for example has a range of 3 m. Now, if combatant A attacks B from a distance of 3 m he most probably uses his WS to hit, right? But does he count as being in melee? Can he make use of the Swift Attack or Lightning Attack talent to make a Multiple Attacks action then? Could he make use of a Stub Pistol in his off-hand with Two-weapon Wielder? If he could make use of Two-weapon Wielder, does he count as being in melee (+/-0 to hit) or does he count as being at point blank range (i.e. <3 m) getting +30 to hit? What happens if combatant C decides to use his Lasgun to shoot at A (or B)? Does A (or B) count as being in a melee himself, so that C gets -20 to hit? And if A flees, does B get a free attack (if he has a Neural Whip himself for example)?

I am a little confused...

Hello,

does anybody know how melee attacks with a weapon that has a range work in fact?

The main rule is : Melee weapons with a Range attribute count both as a melee weapon and a thrown weapon.

Which means that, in a fight, you can use it to make melee attacks, when engaged (range < 1 meter), or you throw it, when not engaged (range > 1 meter), making a ranged attack.

However, the Neurla Whip's description makes it an exception to this rule, stating that, although it has a Range attribute, it's not a thrown weapon, just a melee one able to stirke foes farer.

So, I think it implies that striking a target 2 or 3 meters far away, with a neural whip, is still a melee attack.

Then, IMHO :

The Neural Whip for example has a range of 3 m. Now, if combatant A attacks B from a distance of 3 m he most probably uses his WS to hit, right?

Yes.

But does he count as being in melee?

Yes, for the purpose of resolving his attacks.

Can he make use of the Swift Attack or Lightning Attack talent to make a Multiple Attacks action then?

Yes, with the neural whip (or if he has another melee weapons with the same special rule).

Could he make use of a Stub Pistol in his off-hand with Two-weapon Wielder?

I would say yes, also.

If he could make use of Two-weapon Wielder, does he count as being in melee (+/-0 to hit) or does he count as being at point blank range (i.e. <3 m) getting +30 to hit?

As I said above, I think he must count as being in melee, so no range bonus.

What happens if combatant C decides to use his Lasgun to shoot at A (or B)? Does A (or B) count as being in a melee himself, so that C gets -20 to hit?

No, because A and B are, in fact, farer from each other than 1 meter and so not really engaged in melee.

For example, if A and B are 3 meters afar from each other, but A doesn't use is neural whip to attack, and C shoots at them with autofire, he wouldn't be able to hit both of them without at least 2 degrees of success and sparing one shot in the space between them.

And if A flees, does B get a free attack (if he has a Neural Whip himself for example)?

Tricky issue.

I would say no, for the same reason as above.

And I wouldn't allow A a free attack if B move either.

EDIT :

Or, you can just apply the main rule (i.e. range attack, using BS +30 for point blank range), with these two exceptions :

- Maximum range = 3 meters (so no long nor extreme nor short range).

- No need of the Thrown Weapons Training (Shock) Talent.

Luthor Harkon said:

I have a slightly different take on it. I agree to the second posted up to this point:

I"f he could make use of Two-weapon Wielder, does he count as being in melee (+/-0 to hit) or does he count as being at point blank range (i.e. <3 m) getting +30 to hit?"

Since he can attack the enemy but the enemy can't attack him (assuming that enemy does not also have 3 meter reach), there should be nothing disrupting his own ranged attacks, so yes I would say the range bonus could apply.

"What happens if combatant C decides to use his Lasgun to shoot at A (or B)? Does A (or B) count as being in a melee himself, so that C gets -20 to hit?"

The penalty from shooting into melee is because a friendly target is very close to an enemy target and that they move about as they fight. But at 3 meters there should be enough clearing that you could the penalty. Again, this is my own judegment, there is no set rule on these kinds of weapons. By RAW, if you are ADJASCENT you count as being in melee.

"And if A flees, does B get a free attack (if he has a Neural Whip himself for example)?"

I would say yes. Technically, they are no in melee with one another but with Neural Whips and the ability to strike one another they should IMO. Of course B also having a whip would change my answer to the question about range bonuses.

Friend of the Dork said:

Hmm...

If you allow this, the next logical step is to allow characters to "threaten" anyone within 3 meters with a free attack if the opponent moves away from the whip-wielding character. Not only is this borderline overpowered, its also a lot of book-keeping. Also, no matter how fast a character is, if someone is standing at 3 meters away, and turns and runs, they are likely to get clear of an incoming ranged-melee attack.

For simplicity, realism and balance purposes, I would keep the whip as it is clearly intended: A melee attack rolled with WS out to the range given, with no further special rules granted.

I would most definitely not allow players to increase the effective range at which they can force others into melee, even in the odd scenario of two duellists with whips.

Bladehate said:

Ok, sounds good, but would you allow Swift Attack and Lightning Attack? Or Two-weapon Wielder with an off-hand pistol? And would that pistol gain a +30 for being at point blank range (<3m) or +/-0 for being in melee? Hmm…

Swift + Lightning = Full Round action, so allowing players to take that action out to 3 meters might be OP, since it will force them to move less and thus allow them to make more multi-attack actions. But even so, I think I would allow it. If it turns out to be too OP, I wouldn't hesitate to nerf it though. That would make ranged melee weapons more flexible, but not necessarily the only sane choice.

If he's using a pistol (with both Two Weapon Wielder Melee + Ballistic obviously), yes, it would be considered PB range. Target has no way to block or upset his aim, so +30% is neither OP nor unrealistic.

Bottom line is that the enemy is still only 3 meters away, and can very easily close the distance.

Obviously, you would need to have a common sense approach to it. For example, I could see a player making some kind of silly melee-kite build using Assassin Strike or Tumble actions. That's been seen before in other, more melee-centric RPGs.

If I do a Charge action, can I stop 3 meters away and do a whip attack? And will I get the +10 to WS?

This could counter the effect (that is imho pretty flawed) in the system where it is generally a bad idea to be the charging person into a melee, at least at higher levels where your opposition often have access to Swift/Lightning attack.

Bladehate: I can't remember what issue of the Order of the Stick comic that maneuver is spoofed...

Mellon said:

You're thinking of the Half-Ogre with a Spiked Chain?

Unusualsuspect said:

Indeed!

To be honest, I feel like that sort of "in and out" kinda fighter could be a colorful character or enemy ( think Kevin in Sin CIty, complete with weakness - needs room to dance around, no stamina in a slugfest. They are giving up on Power weapons, after all, as well as Blademaster, by choosing an unconventional weapon.

Plus, anyone can draw a gun of their own and blast him or her, which is why I'm inclined to allow it. Melee doesn't really need to be tweaked downward a great deal in a game where ranged is at a definite advantage.

You guys all get major bonus points for mentioning OotS though =).

Bladehate said:

Overpowered? Maybe, the ability to remain at PBR while still having your enemy count as being in melee is a definite advantage. It makes it hard for shotgun-wielding users or those wanting to do FA at PBR. Realisticly I don't see how it is harder to run away from someone with a blade rather than someone with a long whip or long spear without exposing yourself.

As for more bookkeeping, how so? You don't need to write anything down. You'd need to keep track of how far you're away from enemies, but you have to do that anyway regarding ranged weapons and even melee so no change there.

But if you don't allow the whip-wielder to count as being in melee with his target then there is almost no benefit to this ablity at all. Ok, it allows you to attack enemies that would otherwise be slightly out of range, but in such a situation you're better off using ranged weapons anyway, and if you do this the enemy can fire at you with PBR bonus every round shredding you to bits. This is probably why neither me nor my players have even considered the weapon, despite it's Shock Quality.

And in any case, the one without whip can disengage as normal or move closer (without provoking a free attack, this is not D&D) and attack in melee where the whip has no advantage.

To the others (**** no multi-quote): I believe it is one of the very first strips of OotS where the half-ogre spiked chain wielder does his thing. Note that what he does in the comic would actually not be allowed in the game, at least not in the 3.5 or Pathfinder version (for instance, you only provoke one AoO from movement no matter how much you move around an opponent). I guess it was either the author who didn't read the rules too well, or a spoof on other DMs who didn't read it right.

In any way, since only moving away from melee provokes a free attack in this system the possibility for abuse is very limited.

Mellon: Yes despite wich way you read the rules it should be allowed, a charge is a melee attack.

Bladehate: Yes I see no reason not to allow Swift attack etc. with the whip at 3 meter, but you'd have to use a Full-action of course which means you need to start 3 meters away from the enemy. I'd also allow the use of two-weapon wielder (if you have both melee and ranged versions). The only thing I'd be loath to allow is Full auto+Swift attack since both requires a full action, and to be able to use different modes of fire the rules say you need to fire two ranged weapons.

@FriendOfTheBlade

If you allow this, the next logical step is to allow characters to "threaten" anyone within 3 meters with a free attack if the opponent moves away from the whip-wielding character. Not only is this borderline overpowered, its also a lot of book-keeping. Also, no matter how fast a character is, if someone is standing at 3 meters away, and turns and runs, they are likely to get clear of an incoming ranged-melee attack.

There is no threatening in DH. There is only a free attack for moving out of melee with a character. Thus, only the characters engaged in melee with the whip-wielder would be at risk of receiving an attack. I personally would consider the character to be engaged only with those he actually attacked (possibly in the previous round), otherwise he would be able to make a near-infinite amount of attacks in a single round if all his enemies ran away at once - which presumably isn't quite intended.

Cifer said:

Uhm that's not me you're quoting, that's just Bladehate

Otherwise I quite agree with you, and would also consider anyone attacked with a whip to be "engaged in melee."

In my opinion the whip user gets to use swift or lightning attack and can use a pistol with his off hand ( if it's effective depends on his talents) but as he is doing a melee attack he doesn't get the PBR bonus. Frantically swinging a whip tends to keep you from aiming precisely.

Umbranus said:

Not allowing aiming is already in there (can't take aim in a full-attack action). I think the whole point about range penalty/bonuses is that it is inherently easier to shoot someone very close as they make a much larger target. Not having time to aim or not, the proverbial barn door is still easier to hit.

Also I don't necessary see it as happening at the same time, just in the same 5-second timespawn. And it is not really a problem to get off a shot or 6 in a single second, especially when you don't really need to aim - the rest of the time is for the melee attacks.