I posted this on Boardgamegeek awhile ago, and it hasn't received a whole lot of hits, as the game isn't very popular with the clientele over there. Why it didn't occur to me to post it here I don't know, but, for your reading and discussion enjoyment, here you go!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've played Tannhauser a handful of times with both rulesets, and I have some concerns with the new rules. I'm thinking of implementing house rules to change these, but I'd like to get some more opinions before doing so. Here are my thoughts:

First, grenades. I used to think that 'nades had been seriously nerfed since the first version of the rules, but now I'm not sure. (For those of you not familiar with both rulesets, grenades used to deal one automatic wound, then they rolled an attack roll using the character's combat value, which was then defended against. Now they just deal four automatic attack successes, sans roll, and the target gets to make a shock roll.) Four automatic successes is still pretty good, and players would generally be wise to exhaust their grenades before using their guns, but they still deal only four successes, two or three of which are often cancelled by shock rolls, and one more of which can be cancelled by spending one of the pile of command points you receive under the new ruleset.

Which brings me to my second point; Do players receive too many command points? Command points are pretty useful, and two per turn? Wow! That's what, maybe 5-10 times as many as were received in the original ruleset? And you have to use 'em or lose 'em! Basically what that means for the game is that 1-2 points of damage is going to be prevented for each team, every turn. Preventing that much damage just makes all weapons less effective. Except for maybe the weapons that roll scads of dice (I'm looking at you, Flash gun and Barry Brown's frickin' huge autocannon). Those guns are going to blast right through that command point healing. Any other gun is nicking away health at the rate of 0, 1, maybe 2 per shot. The only people that carry these killer weapons fight for the Union. Ergo, the command point system makes the Union more deadly than any other team, especially the Obscura Corps.

That's not even the main weakness of the Obscura Corps. The main weakness is that they have too few options when it comes to killing a tank like Barry Daniel Brown. His stamina number means that he's shaking off wounds on a 4+. Regular guns and grenades won't touch him, so the only way to kill him is to use Strafe or to have Heizinger hit him with Sha-Na-Ra. Doesn't sound too unreasonable, but one of those characters will probably die trying to get to Brown, and if the other one fails to kill him, he's going to unload an ungodly amount of lead into their face on the next turn. The sequence of events that would be required to result in an Obscura Corps kill of Brown seems extremely unlikely to me.

To add insult to injury, the Obscura Corps's crack shock troop, the (ingeniously named) Shocktruppen, sucks at the thing he's supposed to be best at--overwatch. Let's face it--overwatch is a preventative measure. You put someone on overwatch to dissuade your opponent from heading down a certain hallway. If they really want to get to that weak character you hid in the corner, they're going to have to wade through some gunfire to do it. The Shocktruppen's ability (can fire multiple times while on overwatch) really sounds cool, but nobody but nobody is going to face multiple rounds of gunfire just to get somewhere. They'll go the other direction. The rules rewriters must have seen that, because they reduced the number of dice the Shocktruppen rolls on overwatch attacks. Not a bad idea, but now the problem is that he's effectively stuck with a pea shooter as soon as he goes on overwatch. Rolling two dice makes me feel more like I'm throwing rice at a wedding than unloading a machine gun on that idiot who ran around the corner without looking first. True, his one ability (Mad Minute or Keep Firing--I can never remember which) allows him to roll an extra die, but still. Three dice is hitting 1, maybe 2 (3 if you're really lucky) times. That's not enough damage to get past a shock roll. So it doesn't matter if you're dealing that damage 1, 2, or 27 times per turn. It just won't do anything.

In addition to all of that, the Union has the smoke grenade at their disposal. I played this game against my friend last night as the Union. I went easy on him, making suboptimal decisions, just to see what would happen. I decided to not even use my smoke grenades, and guess what? I pasted him to the wall. Not even close. A smashing Union victory and they didn't even use one of their most effective weapons--John MacNeal, running into a smoke-filled room with no fear of retribution and opening up on all the demon-possessed Germans who are coughing their lungs up while crawling around blindly bumping into tables.

So, to my questions. I've thought about returning the command point system to the way it used to be. That is, the pool of command points is fixed from the beginning and they don't refresh every turn. I've played it that way, though, and it seems to take a certain dynamic away from the game. The other option is to just not allow players to spend command points to negate wounds. I haven't tried it this way. Has anyone else? Thoughts? I'm thinking this will fix grenades as well.

But I don't have any great ideas on how to deal with the fact that Barry Daniel Brown (and I'm thinking Zor'ka, though I haven't played with her much) are just too **** tough to kill under the new rules. The other issue is with the Obscura Corps's weaker weapons, weaker characters, and fewer dice. With every character shaking off more or less the same number of wounds on each shock roll (2), weapons that roll more dice are going to carry the day, every day.

Has anyone developed any variants or house rules to address these issues? Has anyone other than me even picked up on these issues?

I'd love to hear some opinions on the matter.

Thanks.

Hi there,
first of all, if you're talking about deathmatch. it is truly in favor of Union, but just slightly. With Reich troop pack, shocktruppen can have up to 7 dice for melee and speed of 7. Kramer's whip is not that bad, and Sha-na-ra (as you stated bfore). The main problem i see is preventing with command points. Most of the time you inflict like 1 (or 2 if you are lucky). So it's bout who has more dice at their disposal. One of the house rules I'm plannig to try is:

• not having an option to prevent dmg
• preventing dmg would cost 2 command points (so you can prevent 1 dmg per round or m

Althou find Ramirez, MacNeal (with night visions) + smoke VERY irritating. Only option for Reich is to withdraw from the smoke grenade effects. Also Ozzo with preventing and stuff like that is quite useless now, when you have 4 or less dice, you won't most likely inflict any damage. I'm still not sure with the close combat weapons for characters with guns. Thinking of some penalization whilst having no Melee weapon (like in basic rules). But it's not that nessesary.

In objective mode the problem with strong weapons is not that big. The movement speed of Reich troops is quite an advantage (Stoss 9 with celerity, Wolf 8 with jack of all trades, Kramer 8).

Grenades - i found those quite ugly, 4 automatic sucesses is devastating enough. (althougth preventing dmg will result in 1 dmg if you are lucky). I would like to see some errata/faq or something maybe some new changes will occur.

As I was answering, I forgot some things I wanted to say .
I like the new system of command points, because before you didn't use 'em that much. Now you can spend them all the time, which add some new tactical benefits. But again, preventing damage > any other CP action.
Barry is one tough bastard, but it's in his nature and I would keep it that way. Zor'ka is indestructible (i guess that's the point), especially when you take the skill that gives you 5 shock dice. Bud she has only melee weapon so I don't see a problem with her. (hmm I wonder who would stand more chance, in Barry vs. Zor'ka duel).

Aaaaaaaaaand, I hope this is lats .
Shocktruppen is ultimate with new command pack. Overwatch is for free (mechanical arm). 6 melee dice. This is quite usefull when you loose initiative, so you just put Shocktruppen on overwatch and the enemy is not going anywhere . Used that a several times. Having 6 overwatch dice can make a sad evening for the enemy.

Drinkdrawers said:

Not unless both players are extremely unimaginative. Command Points are often better spent in placing units - particularly the Schocktruppen - on Overwatch, or increasing Movement, or upping a unit's Combat or Stamina just before making an Attack or Shock roll.

I don't think that players receive too many Command Points. I think the two-per-turn setup is just about perfect, given how critical Overwatch is in the new setting, and how they make weak units viable methods of attack or defense.

Preventing that much damage just makes all weapons less effective. Except for maybe the weapons that roll scads of dice (I'm looking at you, Flash gun and Barry Brown's frickin' huge autocannon). Those guns are going to blast right through that command point healing. Any other gun is nicking away health at the rate of 0, 1, maybe 2 per shot. The only people that carry these killer weapons fight for the Union. Ergo, the command point system makes the Union more deadly than any other team, especially the Obscura Corps.

I would argue that the Command Point system makes the Reich more deadly than it does the Union. In the original rules, Barry and John (and Commando Alpha, assuming that you take his Combat Pack) were already pretty much shredding anything that they got in their sights. Adding the Command Point system makes the Schocktruppen much more powerful, and, as I mentioned above, can be used in many more ways than simply blocking damage. For example, it can be used to temporarily increase Heizinger's Mental value, allowing for a devastating Sha-Na-Ra attack. Or you can pump up the Stosstruppen's Movement, allowing an ambush attack that will devastate most units - even heroes like MacNeal.

That's not even the main weakness of the Obscura Corps. The main weakness is that they have too few options when it comes to killing a tank like Barry Daniel Brown.

Sha-Na-Ra obliteration, Strafe crippling blow after a Movement boost, Patmos Amulet controlling MacNeal, Doom attacks from off-path, Stosstruppen ambush.

The only Reich unit that is actually helpless against Barry is the Schocktruppen.

To add insult to injury, the Obscura Corps's crack shock troop, the (ingeniously named) Shocktruppen, sucks at the thing he's supposed to be best atoverwatch. Let's face itoverwatch is a preventative measure. You put someone on overwatch to dissuade your opponent from heading down a certain hallway. If they really want to get to that weak character you hid in the corner, they're going to have to wade through some gunfire to do it. The Shocktruppen's ability (can fire multiple times while on overwatch) really sounds cool, but nobody but nobody is going to face multiple rounds of gunfire just to get somewhere. They'll go the other direction.

Which is why you place the Schocktruppen on Overwatch at the intersection , not just in the middle of one path.

The rules rewriters must have seen that, because they reduced the number of dice the Shocktruppen rolls on overwatch attacks. Not a bad idea, but now the problem is that he's effectively stuck with a pea shooter as soon as he goes on overwatch. Rolling two dice makes me feel more like I'm throwing rice at a wedding than unloading a machine gun on that idiot who ran around the corner without looking first. True, his one ability (Mad Minute or Keep FiringI can never remember which) allows him to roll an extra die, but still. Three dice is hitting 1, maybe 2 (3 if you're really lucky) times. That's not enough damage to get past a shock roll. So it doesn't matter if you're dealing that damage 1, 2, or 27 times per turn. It just won't do anything.

It's very much enough to get past a Shock roll, especially if Heizinger is nearby with Hermetica Umbra. And, as others have said, the Command Pack makes him amazing.

Thanks for the replies. Interesting points. I have definitely been using deathmatch to familiarize myself with the game, and tried the scenario Bang Bang yesterday, for a close game between Reich and Matriarchy. One suggestion over at BGG was to replace CP damage prevention with spending a CP to roll one extra shock die. I think that would even it out with the other abilities, but one thing we noticed yesterday is that CP damage prevention is critical for Voivodes. Those things would just get smashed in no time without it.

Yorktown said:

How is two damage enough to get past a shock roll? Sure, if you roll five or six attacks in a row, probability will dictate that eventually two or three hits will coincide with a flubbed shock roll, But that’s not going to happen very often, because after the Shocktruppen’s first two overwatch attacks, he’s going to get attacked by the other character. And in regards to Hermetica Umbra, are you suggesting that the Shocktruppen is only useful as long as Heizinger’s around with a specific item? That means that when the Union manages to kill Heizinger, they’ve effectively neutralized not only Heizinger, but also all the Shocktruppens (How do you pluralize that word?). And let’s face it, Heizinger isn’t very hard to kill.
Please understand that I’m not trying to be antagonistic here. I just want to understand if there’s something I’m missing, and I feel like I’ve accounted for a lot of your counterpoints. Please let me know if you think I’m misunderstanding, or if I’ve made a mistake in logic, but it still seems to me that the Reich are at a big disadvantage to the Union when it comes to deathmatch.

Drinkdrawers said:

It allows you area denial.

For example, on the castle map, the "living room" area is fairly critical. It's difficult to move through that portion of the house if you don't control the living room. Placing a unit on Overwatch in the living room - preferably in the circle which also intersects with the hallway path - can give you a near-impenetrable defense. It's difficult to dislodge an Overwatch unit with such a wide range of effect.

I agree that the new CP system beefs up many of the Reich's abilities, but I think you're wrong about it helping the Reich more than the Union. For example, under the original rules, Sha-Na-Ra was the only instant kill the Reich had. While MacNeal and Brown’s attacks might not be served by a CP boost, since they are already so powerful, Sha-Na-Ra can now deal four wounds max (as compared with MacNeal’s seven!) under the new rules. Not only does that weaken the Reich, but spending a CP to boost Heizinger's mental value is going to deal, on average, one extra damage every 2.5 attacks, I believe. Not great.

You can spend more than one CP on increasing a unit's score. For example, increasing Eva Kramer's Stamina. Most of the time, she has a measly 4, making her an easy target. With the new CP system, though, you can reliably increase it to 5 if she comes under attack, and even to 6 on some occasions.

Your point about Sha-Na-Ra is taken, though.

And while the Stosstruppen can be a speedy bugger who rolls six dice, he still has to get adjacent to another character to attack them, while John or Barry can spend the same command point to get the extra movement, and all they have to do is get to the same path. That’s way more flexible, and therefore way better.

Undoubtedly. I was just pointing out that there are other uses for CPs than preventing damage.

Sha-Na-Ra and Patmos Amulet: fair enough, but you have to get Heizinger, the glass cannon, in range with sufficient health. Tough to do.

Not really. "Sufficient health" doesn't really enter into it; if I remember correctly, Heizinger has a Mental score of 6/6/6/4. Unless he's missing several quarts of blood, he'll be able to activate both of them just fine. The Patmos Amulet has quite a range, and Sha-Na-Ra is essentially a gun. It's not that hard to do.

Strafe: yes, but Eva has to roll that 10, which happens every other attack on average.

John and Barry also have to roll a 10 for their abilities to go off, though. Admittedly, it's much easier to activate Barry's, on account of the Battery and his Heavy weaponry, but still.

Doom is four dice with a range of what, six or seven?

Five dice. I use his Mental Pack. And yes, it's six or seven, but off-path. That's surprisingly handy.

It’s a good bet that Barry will survive that and get revenge on his next activation.

Which is why Karl is defensive rather than offensive. He is, essentially, a turret. He provides an area where the rest of the Reich troops can retreat to, secure in the knowledge that anyone following will be struck by a five-die attack with a Combat of 6.

It seems to me that the Stosstruppen is the only Reich unit that will reliably injure Brown

Eva doesn't have to get a 10 to do so. Heizinger, as I explained above, is more powerful than you give him credit for.

And you’re right about the fact that the Shocktruppen is helpless against Brown—and that’s a big deal. If the Shocktruppen’s main purpose is to sit on the intersection of three big paths and be on overwatch, Brown completely nerfs him. He can just walk right through all that gunfire, mow the Shocktruppen down, and then the Union can go wherever they like. This means that, for the Reich, the only benefit from the expensive proposition of overwatch has been removed. Why would the Reich ever use overwatch, and why would they ever pit a Shocktruppen against the Union?

They would use Overwatch because it makes all other Union units cower. Granted, the Union can bring in Barry to kill the Schocktruppen, but that places him in a prime position for retaliatory attack. If the Union uses Barry to break the Schocktruppen's Overwatch, the Reich has a pretty good chance of killing him that turn (as long as the Reich player isn't completely brain-dead and leaves the Schocktruppen off on his own). The Union has sacrificed the queen to capture the bishop.

How is two damage enough to get past a shock roll?

Three damage. He gets an extra die. Three damage can actually get through a Shock roll pretty reliably. Command Points are what saves you from attacks like that, and you have a limited supply.

And in regards to Hermetica Umbra, are you suggesting that the Shocktruppen is only useful as long as Heizinger’s around with a specific item?

No. I am suggesting that the Schocktruppen is more useful than normal when Heizinger is nearby.

Please understand that I’m not trying to be antagonistic here.

I know. I'm not either. Don't worry about it - I spend a lot of time on forums which deal with subjects much more inflammatory than Operation: TANNHAUSER strategy. It takes a lot to get me riled up. I just don't use many smiley faces, so sometimes I can seem angry when I'm not.

but it still seems to me that the Reich are at a big disadvantage to the Union when it comes to deathmatch.

And they do. I wasn't arguing that. The Reich units simply aren't as powerful as the Union's. They're just not quite as weak as you seemed to think that they were in your original post.

The Reich has a chance. It's just not a very big one.

On another note, I can't get these freaking quote tags to work. Can someone please explain them to me? This forum's quote mechanic is... odd.

Plus, you can't edit posts. Annoying.

I got the quote tags to work by putting the commands in caps and making sure there were spaces on either side of the brackets.

On the bright side, thanks for your responses. They really give me some stuff to think about. I think when I first started playing Tannhauser I expected it to be a quick, fun, run-and-gun sort of game. I had to play it quite a few times before I realized that it's not that at all (well, it is fun). It's long and involved and there are lots of difficult decisions to make. So now I'm kind of having to readjust how I think about the game. I think I want to start playing the Reich more now to figure out some of the subtleties to their strategy. Maybe I'll discover some silver bullets.

I didn't think you were being disagreeable, either. There are just a lot of people who don't appreciate it when you argue with them. I wanted to nip that in the bud if possible. Thanks for understanding, and for checking in regularly.

No problem.

The thing to remember when playing the Reich is that you aren't an offensive team. If you're going to win, you need to coordinate your units. Have some of your units - particularly Karl and the Schocktruppen - in a position to cover a retreat. Hit-and-run tactics by Eva and the Stosstruppen are going to be your primary weapons, with Heizinger as spot removal (he's especially good when you can turn MacNeal against Barry, or vice-versa).

The Union is about rushing your opponent before they can get set up. The Reich is about building a defensible position and coordinating your efforts. You can't win if you're disorganized.

Yorktown said:

Tannhauser seems to have bucked the "evil is greater than good" trope that's so common in fiction. Usually, it's the good guys who have to be subtle and coordinate their efforts to take out the bad guys who have greater firepower =P

Here though, the Reich really got the short end of the stick as far as firearms go since they're heavy on pistols which got nerfed in revised edition. Some of the automatic / heavy weapons lost the auto-kill on a natural 10 ability, but picked up a greater base attack compared to the pistols, and some have other bonuses now. Plus the minimum range rule is gone, which benefits the bigger weapons more.

The Union can definitely rush in, as Yorktown mentioned. The Reich's style is harder to pin down. One of the options that seems to be available to them is a denial strategy. The Shocktruppen can obviously provide some board control with overwatch, helping to keep the Union at bay. Von Heizinger's Patmos amulet is not only useful for using another figure's attack, but also prevents that figure from activating again that turn. You can also "herd" figures with the Patmos amulet, though that's more limited, since the figure has to move away from Heizinger. His Hermetica Occulta can also provide board control, though his other Hermetica might be more useful still. With the semi-official ruling that figures can melee through doors, but cannot shoot through them, you can also park Eva, Yula, or a Stosstruppen in a door to block it since they have better melee attacks than most of the Union's figures, though they'll still be vulnerable to grenades. The Patmos amulet, Doom, and Sha-Na-Ra provide various ways for the Reich to attack out-of-path, which complements their board control. They also have several characters with high movement values, which can allow them to get into range for an attack and duck back to a better defensive position - like behind that Stosstruppen guarding the door - though that obviously depends heavily on the situation.

A couple of other thoughts:

As far as I can tell from the current rules, the Patmos amulet can target your own figures. You could activate a figure, sending it into the fray, then use the Patmos amulet on a subsequent turn to force that figure to attack again and possibly move him out of harm's way, onto an objective space, or a modifier space. This can be a way to get a "better attack" out of Von Heizinger while keeping him farther away from the Union's troops. This can give Heizinger a hefty effective out-of-path range if used on Zermann with Doom. I don't think the Patmos amulet's effect cancels Overwatch either, so you could use it on your Shocktruppen and move him to a better spot, something that's useful since Overwatch usually prevents you from moving. These all require some planning on the part of the Reich player, especially since the amulet's target attacks the *closest* figure, and will still require a mental duel, but do give Von Heizinger some nice options.

Be careful of the Troop pack's AN-M11 since it affects an entire path. John MacNeal's boxing bonus token could allow him to knock a Stosstruppen away from a door.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation so far! I'm still new to the game, and debating various house rules, so it's nice to see what other people have experienced. Please let me know if I've made any mistakes with my interpretation of the rules as well =)

I do not find in the rules that overwatch attacks would be done with only 2 dice...

OVerwatch is considered to follow normal rules, meaning for the Reich Trooper that he rolls 5 dice per attack, in best case 6 dice when having Heizinger nearby. And this with mad minute for each circle the other unit is moving onto the same path... or have I overlooked something? In our testing this guy on overwatch was a virtual roadblock for the path he was on.

pixysmile said:

You're right. The Schocktruppen uses 5 dice when making an Overwatch attack... unless you're using his Stamina Pack instead of his Combat Pack.

The Schocktruppen's Stamina Pack comes with the ability Keep Firing! , which allows the Schocktruppen to make Overwatch attacks multiple times in a turn. Most of the time, you only get one Overwatch attack with any given unit. Then they lose their Overwatch status. The Schocktruppen's Stamina Pack allows him to make as many Overwatch attacks in a turn as you want, but reduces his dice pool for each attack to two, not counting the bonus die from Mad Minute .

Ok, got it. Thanks a lot. So you can either fire over a complete round on everything moving, but only with 3, max 4 dice with Heizinger around, or you can fire normally with only one overwatch attack. OVerlooked that one in first testing then... =)

pixysmile said:

Heizinger doesn't grant an extra die. He just increases the Schocktruppen's Combat value by one.

Oh, wait. Are you using the original or revised rules?

To the general weakness of Obscura Corps:

We played two games in which Hermann von Heizinger and Karl Zermann used their command packs on the castle Kiasz map. Not that the unions lost every initiative roll (due the +7 to the initiative rolls of the reich) after placing Karl and Hermann in the first room there was no way for the Union to beat them. Due to the weak mental values of the union characters (all 3, only John has 4) the union lose nearly all mental duels of Hermanns hermetica obscura preventing the union characters may enter the room. Strong characters like John or Barry couldn't get near the room because of the patmos amulet, which always overtook one of the characters (when 7 circles away and due the weak mental values), which when standing together with other characters like alpha or delta team always killed one of the teams. After this the overtaken charakter was always moved at least 6 circles from Herman away... this is like fighting windmills. The rest of the union charakter was killed by Karls Doom with the out-of-path ability. Grenades stuff do not work because of the lack of range, smoke-grenades are not helpful against mental and by no real chance to win the mental duels against Hermann it is not much fun for the Union player.

So if there is no erata of Hermann command pack regarding the patmos amulet or the hermetica (which I not really know but not found in the forum) I think on this map the reich players has a big advantage. On the other hand that there is no reason to give Karl or Herman other packs, which make the choice of other packs obsolete.

On the other hand we also played the catacomb map. For testing Hermann took tis time another pack. In this game the Union player won without any problems nearly alone with John (attack pack). Smoke grenades and nearly always 7 successes in attack rolls made it a hard time for the Reich player.

So I think although the rules were revisited, there is an inbalance in such characters and the packs. So I think the command pack of Hermann and the attack pack of John are broken, especially, there are no reasons for making them such strong. For instance Johns attack pack: adding +2 to a die and ignoring the effects of smoke (nighteyes) and adding to dies by an natural 10 (Flash Gun MK1) is really powerful. Therefor I do not unterstand why they add in the attack pack the combat infantry batch, with the ability to reroll two dies. Especially when the combat value of John is not so bad. I think this is a very powerful combination, and the other packs are not equally strong.

Perhaps you have an advice for balancing the characters.

I agree MacNeal w/ combat pack & Heizinger w/ command pack are deadly - but i think every side should have someone like that on their team - Matriarchy has Zor'ka after all But MacNeal with Hoax is really hard to beat...

As far as the original post & the issues there - i came across those, and i figured the easiest & simplest way to adjust was just to reduce shock roll dice rolled to default of 3 instead of 4. We played 7-8 games with the 4 and it seemed bullets were just bouncing off everyone and that favored the Union more with their better chances to wound - not enough damage was happening when two guys are firing automatic weapons at each other in a room when they're shaking off wounds and that bugged us. Kind of like that movie Face/Off. Became a match of who had the better weapons ultimately. Reducing shock roll dice DOES make Union guns (& grenades) more deadly BUT it actually pushes the Reich over the line to being able to cause some hurt when they attack. So nothing is taken away from anyone (nerfed) but has the effect of increasing one side's chance.

Effects:

-Union still deadly with shooting, but Reich has a better chance of wounding. Easier to hurt Barry.

-grenades are more powerful, USUALLY deal 1 wound at least (have to roll 3 out of 3 shock roll successes + use CP to shake off to be immune) and is a compromise between 1st edition automatic wound rules & revised rules. Gives Reich more of a chance, as Ozo & Shocktruppen gain an almost guranteed way to wound and positioning becomes more important for both sides at the same time. We personally thought it was dumb for a grenade to go off right next to you and not get hurt the half of the time also (rolling 3 successes out of 4 dice + 1 CP really seems like a significantly higher chance to not get wounded - w/o doing actual math ). And since grenades are one-time use, we don't see it as broken. But at the same time Tala & Sergio & Fire grenades become scary so

-forced to use CP more conservatively, saving to shake off potential wounds. This is either good or bad depending on how you look at it. Most of the time you're saving those 2 CP each turn to shake off wounds now and going into OW or the other CP uses a harder decision.

-Schoktruppen still isnt great when using his Keep Firing ability, BUT at least it has a better chance of hitting lol ... But keep in mind - if he's on OW and hasn't moved and has Mad Minute & Keep Firing, he rolls his 3 dice as normal BUT defender rolls 3 dice now each time OW is triggered....not really pea-shooter odds anymore

2 things that really annoy us about the CP:

-characters still shaking off wounds left & right like they've taken lessons from Neo and plugged into the Matrix. We're thinking of limiting shaking off wounds to once per turn per side...

-the CP found in crates are almost useless - you have to devote your guy by the crate to activate first in order to use those points (if they are points!) effectively in your turn - otherwise you dont get them until middle of your turn at best most of the time. I've noticed it's rare when you'd want to do this as you almost always have another character that should take priority in moving first. We felt that if you devote a character to going out of his way (which it is most of the time d/t where they're located), the effects should last longer than the rest of that turn - they do if it's a weapon or equipment. We're thinking of alllowing CP found in crates to be kept at your side - when you activate to use one (that turn or later turn) they can be used, but are gone at the end of that turn.

I don't think the game needs to be altered at all. I've played multiple times, and each has been very close. Both teams have strategies, but I seriously give the edge to the Reich.

Karl, with his command pack, can attack with 5 dice at a range of 7 (8) with command point increase.

Heizingers Patmos Amulet can keep the Union away from the Reich, forcing them out of range, destroying their own units, and eating activations. Eye of Hortus combined with the command pack makes any Union soldier sustain an automatic would if he tries to enter the same path as the Marquis General and fails the mental duel. With command points, this is entirely probable. I'd say the addition of Command Points in liberal qunatity have made the union's mental advantage very difficult to overcome.

I find that as the Union, I have to rush in immediately, control the field with Ramirez/ Tala's ordinance, and destroy the Stasstruppen... Otherwise, if this isn't accomplished on the first few turns, it will be a long game.

As with most stuff, this comes down to the rolls. Natural tens from union or Eva can spell certain doom.

I would say if two novices are playing, Union has a huge advantage. If someone who knows the game, knows the packs, and can utilize patients and cunning, the Reich is the superior squad.

I'd say hats off to FFG for making two balanced squads. I don't have the matriarchy yet, excited to see how they balance things out,

Conclusion: Don't change/alter rules... perfect as is, learn better strategies.

Great topic dude, keep up the good work.

I agree that you don't need any houserules regarding CP or wounds; you only get 2 CP most of the time, and you "should" be dealing far more damage than 2 wounds per turn. Also only one wound may be shaken off by one character at a time. Between grenades and favoriable dice rolls, you should have no trouble ending a Deathmatch is six turns or less.

I don't have the new rules, and I am wondering if smoke grenades have changed since the original rules? Everyone keeps talking about how great they are, but all I know is that in the rules my group has been using- they are utterly worthless other than keeping the Reich off of a certain path.

Also, people say John Macneal in a smoke room is unbeatable- am I to take it that strosstruppen no longer has the ability to always use his max combat value?

Anyway I like this thread, before I only heard people saying how bad the reich is- but I've heard some compelling arguments. I kinda want to get the new rules now. I've never seen it in action, but Heizinger's new amulet sounds NASTY- no matter what anyone says. It was bad enough when he could only move people (people talk about how awesome Barry is, true- but he ain't so good when heizinger moves him onto his own team's bombs.)

I have a question, do the different weapons still have different minimum ranges?

Miah999 said:

Well, now it's been awhile since I've played, so my memory is going to be a little rusty, but I think that you're making a statement that says I'm just plain wrong and I don't think I am. The only way the Reich is going to deal 'far more' damage than two per turn is if they 1. Get the Stosstruppen up next to somebody to attack, 2. Control one of the big guns with Heizinger, or 3. The Union stupidly sends all of their characters straight at them. And those things aren't going to happen turn after turn. You usually only get one shot at something before you get cut down to a level where you can't do much damage anymore.

I guess I just don't see how you can justify saying the Reich should be dealing that much damage, turn after turn. Can you elaborate?

Ok, I play a lot and I must say I did not like the rule changes at first but after playing a few death matches I found the Reich more evenly match to the Union now...

I actually think the Reich has stronger and better characters.
So no shock, I usually play the Reich and about 90% of the time I win.
I dislike Hermann so I never bring him. I bring the girls and play very aggressive with multiple attacks on the same union character each turn-starting with the BIGGEST gun followed by John...
If your characters come with close combat weapons and high movement values move in for the kill and get out-If you get attackedcounter attack, search crates and look for points so you can counter attack more
In other words 5 characters should make 5 actions or on their way to do so the next turn.
Play by rules, use the rules.

Note: Hoax is my new favorite assassin. She also served as a distraction.

@drinkdrawers

The Reich can score tons of damage by utilizing the union's strengths. Barry rolls 7 or better on mental duels, which makes his mind super easy to control.

If Eva gets hot, and rolls a few tens, she scores critical hits for an extra wound, in addition to allowing the opponent only two shock dice.

With Karl, you can his command pack and roll five dice with Doom. This is awesome, considering you can keep him around corners and out of range with ease.

Stosstruppen, obvious.

and the Shocktruppen, using mad minute, in conjunction with section chaos make them roll at six dice.

Each player with the Reich can deal massive damage, if used properly.

One could argue this comes back to rolls, however. Unless I'm mistaken, the Union relies on natural tens in order to roll additional die... otherwise most just roll at five. Berry does have six, but if you target him early i.e. bull rush with two stosstruppen...

I think their both very even, as I said, with a slight edge to the Reich on virtue of adjustable strategies/ sneakiness.

Fomr my pov the union is the "weakest" faction because his most tool is smoke greandes which are a penalty for most of its characters too. The Reich ahs a net advantage by ignoring the Path limitations with Doom or Patmos.