The problem comes up with the plot Fortified Position and the character Host of the Bear

• "Fortified position (4 0 1)":

Treat all characters in play as though their printed text box was blank (except for Traits)

• "Host of the Bear"

Discard Host of the Bear at any time your total initiative is 2 or lower.

First, Host of the Bear's effect is a constant ability because it checks and (if necessary) update the count of its variable "total Initiative" (from FAQ 3.11).

Continuous or constant plot effects take effect immediatly and simultaneously as soon as the plot card is revealed (from FAQ 2.2).

So simultaneously the discard effect of the Host is blanked and takes effect. I am not sure there is a conflict here, that's why I'm asking your opinion but here is the way I see it :

Since both effects take effect at the same time they must both apply. So the Host will be blanked for this whole framework action window, but he will also be discarded and be Moribund for the whole framework action window.

One could argue the rule about "continuous or constant plot effect" does not apply to the Host because they are a character not a plot.

So maybe we can apply the "Lasting effect conflict" rule (from FAQ p.14) here that says both effects take effect at the same time and we apply the net sum of both effect, which is blanking the Host and discarding it.

I'm not sure these continous effect are lasting effects but I think so. FAQ says :

"Effects that last for longer than a single action are considered lasting effects. Both actions and passive abilities can be lasting effects."

I'm not good in English. For sure 1st sentence allows continuous effects to be lasting effects, but I don't know wether 2nd sentence excludes them or not.

The moment you reveal plots Host has no text, so you don't discard them.

How do you decide which effect apply first? As far as I know they take effect at the same time.

Bolzano said:

Here's another way to look at it: If you have Overzealous Scout in play (+4 Initiative) and reveal Fortified Position, is there ever a time when your total initiative is 4 (from the plot and the Scout combined) instead of 0 (from just the plot)? No, because the same action that changes your plot initiative blanks the bonus on the character. Because the two changes to the environment (new plot initiative value and new plot effect) become applicable at the same time and do not conflict, they would be factored into any check or reconfiguration of the environment (like figuring total initiative or evaluating Host of the Bear) together.

The end result is that Host of the Bear is blank at the same time your total initiative becomes 0, so there would be nothing discarding them as a result of the low initiative. There isn't a mutually exclusive timing conflict here, so there isn't really a question of "which comes first" that needs to be resolved.

ktom said:

If I understand, you are saying that initiative changes and plot text goes into effect before Host of the Bear text because initiative is a condition to the Host ability. I think it is not a condition; here is why :

First, did my total initiative really change? The same way a CHAR STR is not raised when a lasting effect "-1 STR" goes off, I think the total inititive just IS = 0 and wasn't actually changed (reduced or raised) because there is no point of initiation for the INIT change. The way I see it, we have simultaneously those 3 :

1) INIT is 0

2) At any time INIT is below 2, the Host is discarded

3) The Host's text is blanked

The instant just before this my previous plot was still revealed.

Those 3 already kicks in simultaneously. #2 doesn't have any condition to fullfill to trigger, as a continuous effect it constantly affects the game waiting for the init to be below 2. It does not "trigger" when the INIT is below 2. If my initiative was 4 the effect would still be active and checking my INIT, even if it wwould not discard the Host yet.

I will probably play it the way you say it ktom, although I'm not entirely sure any of us is right.

Plot Phase
1. Plot Phase begins
Framework Action
Player Actions
Player Actions
1. Choose and reveal plots
2. Initiative is counted
3. High initiative player
appoints “First Player”
4. "When revealed" plot
effects resolve (In order
determined by First Player)
Framework Action
Proceed to Draw Phase
1. Plot Phase ends
Framework Action

I may be wrong but it seems that plots are revealed (and their passive card text or ability are active) before initiative is counted.

So I would say (if we follow the FAQ order of resolution) that Ost of the Bear text is blanked before initiative count is done. And it won't be discarded.

@Kordovan: initiative count is for winning initiative - that's different thing.

BTW if Host of the Bear is discarded after revealing setup cards, can I play Parting blow? It's weird situation.

Rogue30 said:

ktom said:

So I should read "Cards revealed during setup do not trigger card effects" simply as card effects don't work? You know what I mean, Host of the Bear is constant but it "triggers" any time. Or maybe it's more like passive effect?

Bolzano said:

There is a point of initiation for the change; revealing the plot card. Just like playing a card that says "Your characters get +1 STR." has a point of initiation when the card is played. And just to clarify, when a "-1 STR" lasting effect wears off, you are not considered to be raising the character's STR, but the character's effective STR (comparable to "total initiative") has changed. Consider that when the plot "The Raven's Song" is replaced (and thus "wears off"), the season "changes," right?

Here's the difference between your #'s 1, 2 and 3: While the Host's text does create a constant effect, that effect requires a check for total initiative - which is, at all times, the total of your plot initiative and all initiative modifiers. So even if your plot initiative becomes 0 (#1) at the same time as Host of the Bear checking the total initiative and discarding below the threshold (#2) happen at the same time, #1 must be factored into the application of #2. It's not a conflict of lasting/continuous effects because they can both be applied at the same time without creating mutually exclusive results. And since you know that #1 and #3 (the blanked text) become applicable at the same time, it must be thrown into the application of #2 as well.

The point is that when things all apply at the same time, you put them all together and apply the result. So there isn't really a conflict between these three things because you can combine them into a single application of effects.

Rogue30 said: