So! Has there been any official clarification regarding the hilarious uselessness of a Halberd when compared to a spear?

My players find this absolutely ridiculous. We'd love to hear what others have done, besides not using halberds, like, ever.

For a better explanation of this oddity, I will quote forum user Freiduin (from a thread about a year ago):

The spear description on p 75 states:

" It can be wielded two-handed, increasing its damage rating by 1".

This means that when you use the spear with two hands... it has the same DR and CR as the halberd but on top of that it is Fast too

Halberd: DR 6, CR 2, Two-Handed

Spear: DR 6, CR 2, Fast

If you use Halberd as a spear, it gets the same stats as a spear but isn't throwable, so its still not as good.

If you use Halberd one-handed without changing grip the comparison with spear used one-handed becomes:

Halberd: DR 4, CR 2, +1 additional challenge die, +1 additional recharge token

spear: DR 5, CR2, Fast

Spear is simply just better. And on top of it all, its cheaper and has less encumbrance too. The spear is simply superior to the halberd in every single way.

/Quote

I'm not 100% certain that the above stats are correct, but you get the general idea.

Well, some time ago Pumpkin proposed something like this:

Spear is a 4/2 weapon with the Fast quality, or 5/2 with the Fast quality if used two-handed (to stop Halberds being
pointless) .

Halberd is 6/2 two handed or 5/2 fast as a two handed spear.

Makes Spear less superior

Or add some sort of breaking chance mechanic to the spear - either on attacks or when parrying - it's superior right until the point where it breaks and becomes firewood.

I'm thinking of puting it as a 5/3 weapon, no Fast quality, can be thrown as the melee dagger can (check melee dagger entry in the core book). If used 2 handed, becomes a 5/2. I'd price it as a Hand weapon too.

It's on par with hand weapons and halberd

Yeah, I think dropping the spear's base damage by one point solves most of the problems with it.

i personally don't like the 4/2->5/2 version : i can't see any reason why it should be as dangerous as Great Weapons critical wise when 1 handed.

The real difference with Hand Weapons is its ease to be used 2 handed and ease to be thrown (without beeing a Thrown weapon like a javelin). I also cannot see why it should be Fast when only Dagger & Rapier are (small and light weapons). A Spear is neither small nor light, even Roman Pilum are the size of a long/broad sword (Hand Weapons are Encumbrance 3, Spear is 4).

I based it on Hand Weapon 5/3 (no Fast quality), allowed it to be thrown as a melee dagger (1 misfortune dice), also getting a small benefit if used 2 handed (5/2)

I'm trying to figure out why people care? This is akin to the 5g ornate lamp, versus the 5 silver functional lamp argument (as per tier).

The halberd is largely a ceremonial weapon wielded by court guards. There aren't many units of 'halberdmen', although spearmen are plentiful. If you are desparate to add something, many halberds had hand-guards added on the haft, so you could throw in the 'defensive' quality. Overall they were used as heavy pike to fight horsemen (maybe add a white die in there) and otherwise inflexible and poor choice of weaponry.

I'm curious which PC is desparate to have a halberd so much that they are upset by the spears equivalent stats...

the Spear, per RAW, in very unbalanced : it's better than any Hand Weapon and better than a Halberd. No point at all to even use another 1 hand weapon.

The discusion is more about how to make it an "ok" weapon in regards to the weapon's table in the core book

Hand Weapon : DR 5, CR 3, - , Enc. 3, 25s

Spear : DR 5, CR 2, Fast (powerful quality), Enc. 4, 20s, can be thrown Close range, can be used 2 handed for +1 Damage (6/2 & Fast )

Halberd : DR 6, CR 2, 2 handed, can be used as a Spear (but not thrown), Enc. 5, 75s

Cwell, I see more clearly now where you're coming from, but my point stands.

The spear is a versatile weapon that survived for the whole duration of the non-black powder era wars for a reason. Its cheap, its versatile, and effective.

That said there are MANY reasons to not wield it as a one handed weapon. Good Sigmarites love their hammers. Rogues don't want five foot shafts that have to be tied onto their backs while trying to be sneaky. Roadwardens prefer the white die of their Sabre on the horse.

But aside from flavor, appropriateness and other such important things look at it from this angle. You cannot dual-wield spears (as per RAW p. 75). Most 'tank' types can certainly fight spear-shield a-la the romans and greeks (but may prefer a warhammer or something less unwieldy when traveling or climbing/skulking/spelunking etc as spears don't exactly 'sheathe' easily and is often a great cause for black dice). Single hand wielders aside from tanks either want stealth and quick draw abilities (knives, or rapier/main gauche) or go for the heavier hitting weapons for double strike. Regardless they won't be using spears.

If you're looking for a house rules solution, you can just bump its crit to 3 as per the thrown column, or remove the 'fast' ability when 2-handing, or if you're going with RAW I suggest you do what I do. Spears are mostly a wooden haft, whereas halberds, warhammers and the like heavier often reinforced or sheathed metal things - chaos stars can break the weapon in combat (try parrying an axe blow with a spear) whereas they can indicate a drop/disarm etc in the other. After the PCs have to replace a few weapons they may stick with something more sturdy that they only have to pay for once.

I agree with Shinma's first post. Why does it matter, really? Not all weapons are created equal. This reminds me of the discussion talking about how the Longbow is better than a Handgun, and a lot cheaper. The fact is, that they are different weapons. A handgun, for example, has status attached to its possession, unlike a Longbow. A halberd is similar. Common people have and use spears, it take someone special and usual to wield a halberd. There is status attached to using a halberd that you wouldn't get with a spear.

Very good points all around, thanks.

Yeah, when it comes down to it, it DOESN'T really matter. But to many of my players, it sure does.

This sort of problem also occurs in a slightly similar fashion with the Dark Heresy PRG. There are certain guns that are just so good that the players don't want to use anything else- fluff and setting be damned.

I just worry about that sort of thing. Unless there's a mechanical rule making the weapon somehow more useful in their eyes, they just won't buy it- literally and figuratively.

dvang said:

Then it doesn't really matter if we change it either. Unequal weapons should be the ones people aspire to not pointed sticks.

Pickles said:

I don't really follow this logic. People want Unequal weapons and aspire to them because of their status and mythos.

Take for example the Katana. There's a fair bit of mythos surrounding the japanese sword. It's steel folded 200+ times. Masters craft them. It is the soul of a warrior. Yadda, yadda. Truth be told, I'd take a european broadsword over it any day. Why? Well the reason that katana's needed so many inovations is because the quality of iron in japan sucks. A two hundred times folded katana, with their curved edge will still get bisected by your usual carbon grade european castle-forged broadsword, which can also chop through steel plate unlike the weapon designed to cut through bamboo and leather armor on a metal poor island-nation.

YET. How many cheesy power gamers, ninja-movie-watching fanboys etc want to run around with katana's named by great masters? And how many RPGs use them by name and provide stats for them? Its because there is a mystique and status attached to it. There's stories told about these swords that attract people to them.

Now no game is perfect. And most are abstractions. Whether a sword is 5/3 or 5/2 is an argument for the ages, and people that want to micromanage more than others. My earlier point is that weapons are NOT balanced. You don't have to give a halberd 6/2 or 7/2 stats to make it desirable to players. What you need to do is give it status and mystique. One of the players in my game bought 3 wealth so he could start with a pistol. And people notice. He has a very nice pistol. The noblemen compliment him. He has to hide it under his cloak when trying to pose as a peasant and gamble with the common folk (he's a gambler). It doesn't matter that a longbow costs less and does more, he loves that pistol as it's a defining part of his character (family heirloom among other things) and people react appropriately to it.

If you need to give a toothpick 6/2 stats in order to have it appeal to your players, you may be 'doing it wrong'. Albeit, I do know of that 'type' of player, so I sympathize a bit. If you need to change stats to make your players take something else (OK OK FINE, it has spear stats but its really an axe, happy?) just make sure you don't overdo it the other direction (breaking caps etc) and budge power creep.

Also ... WFPR has a technological base over a millenia after spears were 'pointed sticks' (which was around the tech level of almost 1000 BC as opposed to Reneissance Germany).

One of the great things about WFRP has always been a pretty good balance of weapons. For example, the games uses "Hand Weapons" and "Great Weapons", instead of trying to diversify a longsword from a battleaxe, etc. They essentially do the same damage on average. A few items are split out, because they either work differently or have a different sort of status attached to them.

Does it really bother you that the PCs don't want to use a halberd? Make it used by elite town guards (burgomeister personal guard, etc). Not all equipment is expected to be used by PCs, some of it can just be used for NPCs.

dvang said:

My problem is players choosing weapons and other gear based SOLELY on the stats. They're GAMING, not ROLEPLAYING. The stats mean everything.

Or, more annoyingly, one of the PCs in my campaign saved up and bought a halberd. But when he took a closer look at the stats of a spear, he got annoyed and frustrated, because he could have spent far less silver for something that was "more useful".

The Halberd is useful when compared to the Spear. Consider the following:

The Spear

• DR: 5
• CR: 2
• Qualities: Fast
• Additional Info: Can be wielded 1 handed with a shield, or two handed for +1 DR, can be thrown at close range

The Halberd:

• DR: 6
• CR: 2
• Qualities: Special, Two-Handed
• Special: At the cost of 1 manoeuvre can switch between these statistics, and the statistics of a Spear that cannot be thrown

You can do anything with a Halberd that you can do with a Spear, except throw it.

You can wield the Halberd two handed like a pole-arm, using the Halberd's statistics. When wielded in this fashion you can use action cards that require the Two-Handed Quality such as Thunderous Blow. For 1 manoeuvre you can wield the Halberd like a Spear, which can be used two handed for +1 DR, one handed without a shield, or one handed with a shield, and it is Fast if used like this. The Spear and the Halberd used like a Spear do not have the Two-Handed Quality, even though sometimes two hands are used when wielding it.

The only catch is that if you ever hold a Halberd like a Spear, you can never hold it like a Halberd again.

Myrmidia 4 Evah!

-Thorvid

I don't think the halberd should be better than the spear. In fact the spear is a nasty weapon with a good piercing capability (we're not just talking about a pointy stick).

IF I were to change something I would keep the damage of the halberd and instead give it some other capability. It could for instance give some sort of negative effect on a boon.

That said I have changed black powder weapons the following way

• Black powder weapons take an action to reload
• All black powder weapons except blunderbuss has +1 piercing on top of anything listed in the stats.
• Pistols get no penalty when being engaged with an enemy (other ranged weapons do according to our house rules)

Nice catch Thorvid!

shinma said:

Yeah... never would have thought of that myself. Fair way to sell halberd to those who'd usually shun from it.

i was searching in wikipedia about armour and halberds, and i found that, halberds where used to cleave the armour, as well as the warhammers and maces, this last two were used more as a way of internally damaging the user. So a good way of putting the halberd is giving it either 1 pierce to armour, or the vicious quality, so when it land a critical blow, it is really nasty, but only when it is used with the axe side, not as a spear, also the haldber, when used as a spear, will not posses the fast quality, as it is more unbalanced and heavy.

The spear coudnt trespass a heavy armour according to history, but was used to point to the joints and the unarmored areas. Maybe against heavy armoured opponents, can merit a 1 misfortune dice, unless the spear is special or is used with some focused kind of attack. The fast quality of the spear has some sense, compared with the halberd and other weapons, is more a precision weapon, but no so much for piercing heavy plates, more about piercing the vulnerable areas.

Also, for 1 chaos start, the spear can break, unless again , the spear is special. I say this, because i am sure the spears of the Spearmen units of the High Elves, dont break that easily

I would remove the 1 maneuvre cost for "changing the grip" of the halberd for using it as a spear, as it seems in my opinion, pointless. How can a change of grip that takes less than 2 seconds, merit a full maneuvre? Sometimes the balance in the game seems done in such a rush, at least in some areas, that i wonder if in the future they will not publish some "armory" kind of supplement with good rules for weapons and optional rules for movement

Thorvid said:

Yep, access to Thunderous Blow, Reckless Cleave and all the Zweihander cards was the reason that one of my players wanted a Halberd over a spear. The raw stats are much less significant than the action cards you can use.

shinma said:

You guys know that this thread was necro-ed from a time before the Spear was errataed, right?