So Robb seems to be doing all right as this guerrilla King of the North (now an official rallying cry, like Maud’Dib) with Grey Wind, a forward scout-assassin the size of a horse. I would guess he’s still outnumbered by the Lannisters, but at a 5-to-1 win ratio that will be going down fast. Robb seems to take a shining to Talisa, a new girl acting as part of the Battlefield Clean-Up crew, although not seeming to be one of the majority of white-cloaked nuns doing the same. No obvious reciprocation, however: she’s not buying his justification (or rationalization) for all this bloodshed. Not that anyone couldn’t see her point, but that’s why there’s war: we just want to kill the cretin in charge, but there’s 30,000 conscripts between us and him. But Talisa’s probably just as angry with Tywin. Still, Robb seems undeterred and attracted; shame he’s betrothed to some hag in the Twins (or something like that).

New locations! First up is Harrenhal, the first clockwork cog castle that has no moving parts. Which is eventually explained in graphic view: the fortress is completely melted from some (must have been BAD) encounter with the old Targaryen Air Force. This is where Arya and the rest of the Night’s Watch recruits have been brought. I figured it was a staging area or a pit stop, but the resident garrison is content to burn through its non-Lannister residents with the old burrow-a-rat-through-your-chest trick, so maybe it’s supposed to be their last stop. The Mountain picks one prisoner (arbitrarily?) and some wincey named Pollivar interrogates them about “The Brotherhood” which no one knows anything about. (Is it an actual organization, or a non-existent excuse for sadistic rodent torture?) Arya spends her wet, muddy nights repeating her $#!% List over and over, acquiring the first quality necessary for revenge: obsession. I couldn’t help but smile as she smoothly adds the Harrenhal supervisors to her grievances.

It looked like time was up for Gendry AGAIN, when—are you kidding?—who should arrive but dear old Brother Numpsie, fairly pissed at the state of his war. One would begin to assume that Lannister is running out of regulars and is drafting any half-able militiamen he can find to throw in front of the Northerners, so why not put the prisoners to work for the war effort? Gendry is especially useful as a smithy, and Tywin sees through Arya’s “disguise” in a heartbeat. In fact, her shrewdness at “travel safety” impresses him so much, he takes her to kill him as soon as his eyes are clos…urm, to be his cupholder. (I can’t imagine Polliver will last much longer with his grubby mitts on her dear Needle.) My mind is fairly blown at Arya’s Moses-like fortunate rise into the enemy’s ranks.

The other location, Qarth, is technically spoiled by the credits, but it’s not like anyone’s hiding the Westeros/Essos atlas, and Daenerys was going to have to find SOMEWHERE to go or else fade away forever. Qarth turns out to be a desert port (Lut Gholein, anyone?), with formidable walls separating its people from the “Garden of Bones”: one assumes that if you survive the Red Waste long enough to get to Qarth, you better find a way in before the sun finishes you off. After engaging in some loaded parlaying with some fat schmuck of “The Thirteen” (local government, possibly arrogant), the Mother of Dragons loses her temper (even without the ability to really back it up) and rages enough to impress one rather large dark man (name with a lot of Xs in it, I hear) Daxos. He pulls some ritualistic display of sponsorship, and Daenerys finally gets a break.

“Hey, do you hate Joffrey yet?”
“Yes, I totally do. Pretty much since he had Ned executed.”
“Are you sure? What if he turns Sansa into a shadow of herself?”
“Um, yeah, I would still hate him.”
“Hmmm, what if…”
“Yes! We want him dead already! You can stop bludgeoning us with reasons to hate him!”
“I don’t know…sounds like there’s still some wiggle room there…how about…we do this!”
“……”

Joffrey’s taking Robb’s victory pretty hard, and decides to take it out on Sansa in the middle of court, Mad King style. Tyrion shows up to rescue her, and foolishly tries to reason with Joffrey. It’s still very scary how Joffrey continues to justify such malicious behavior with the fact that he’s king and therefore torturing his subjects on a whim is perfectly natural. In fact, he’s SO messed up in his head that instead of enjoying Ros and Daisy, he sees them as a method to demonstrate to Tyrion who the hell is in charge here. I could feel my happy lizard brain (“Nudity! Yay!”) falter and then completely stall as it gradually dawned on it how badly the scene had turned.

Granted, I only know about one primary incident with the Mad King (his last, apparently) but one can probably see that monster doing the same crap Joffrey is now. This CAN’T be what the Lannisters intended when Cersei made her play, and every time I see Joffrey, it just gets worse and worse. There will come a time when even his mother will realize that with another Mad King, EVERYONE LOSES.

Tyrion is to the Lannisters as Ned Stark was to the Iron Throne: the man who SHOULD be in charge. The only man smart enough to outmaneuver his entire family: the key, it would seem, is to have as few skeletons in your closet as possible. (I dread for poor Shae…) Lancel is an idiot, and attempts to bully Tyrion with the power he thinks he has, but, much like Ned, learns that that only works when your opponent respects the power you claim to have. (Ooo, Varys was right.) Tyrion does not, uses the Grand Fear of Joffrey to reduce Lancel to a pleading fool, and gains his allegiance against Cersei inside five minutes. I was laughing the whole time.

I thought that the Marriage-of-Myrcella gambit was to figure out which member of the Small Council was a threat, but perhaps it was twofold. Since the only way Pycelle, Varys, or Baelish could be a threat was by being a spy for Cersei, not only did Tyrion need to figure out which one was the spy, but to then to use the release of the spy as the catalyst for getting Lancel alone (since Tyrion knows Cersei would never come to his room). Just goes to show how many moves ahead Tyrion thinks in the game.

And now for the Everyone Hates Baelish show! Pretty sure that Baelish knows by now how royally he screwed up (literally!), and now he’s scrambling to make sure he has an out when the bulldozers show up for the Lannisters. Problem is, Renly sees right through your desperate attempts to throw a lifeline toward him, Margaery doesn’t care what you think you know about her king/husband, and…really, dude? You pick now to make your move on Catelyn? I’m with her: "Have you lost your mind?!" And then he LIES about Arya! All while there is a BOX OF NED IN THE ROOM!!! Seriously, man, Varys is laughing his ass off at you. Now go home and see if you can put the Daisy pieces back together, you weasel.

Stannis and Renly finally meet and bark at each other. Renly laughs at Stannis’ unpopularity and teeny army, and Stannis glowers at Renly’s disrespect and Stark’s alliance. And yet Stannis is completely convinced he can win, while Melisandre warns in trite witchspeak. Are the pirates supposed to be the hidden hole card? Unless Stannis has some brilliant strategy, he’s toast. (Note that this is exactly how I felt as it was happening.)

So then Melisandre goes off to some cave to babble meanderingly around Davos. Is this part of the strat…wtf? Okay, I KNOW it didn’t take Arya nine months to get to Harrenhal, so something is seriously wrong with Melisandre here.

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!?

Lord of Light, my fat hairy eye. After a season of barely any magic at all (just Sheep Person voodoo and dragons), Magic finally shows up and claws its way out of the Red Witch’s womb. NOW I believe that Stannis can win if you toss wraiths into the mix. A lot of soldiers are going to die, unless the plan is to just erase Renly and be done with it. (Why aren’t they just pointing Melisandre’s thighs at King’s Landing then?)

I cna't wait to see your review of "The Ghost of Harrenhall" and hwo the story answers the questiosn you pose in your last paragraph.

i really enjoyed last nigth's episode and think they have skillfully distlled the msot important and exciting parst of a pretty dull, middle trilogy novel. I think we are building uo tp a spectyacular finish and can't wait to see hwo thinsg play out.

Renly finally agrees to a Stark alliance, with a couple of caveats, and…um…oh, what difference does it make? Melisandre’s Shadowwombthing slithers in, jabs Renly through the heart, and disappears. And that, as they say, is that. It only takes the “head of the snake” to be gone for EVERYONE to flock to the last Baratheon standing.

Catelyn and Brienne (angry with revenge, but fleeing misplaced blame) forge a partnership as they head back to Robb, while Littlefinger finds a kindred spirit in the suddenly-deposed Margaery, who declares her inner Anne Boleyn (wants to be THE Queen). Apparently, they flee with Ser Loras the Heartbroken back to House Tyrell’s territory.

Well, all I can say is that all this makes it easier for me to choose a Baratheon myself. Not that I’m all that thrilled about Stannis; he’s just such a hardass. It’s a little irritating that he barely listens to anyone. Davos has to pound him on the side of the head with a sledgehammer over and over to get him to even look at him. But it seems like a siege on King’s Landing is finally on the horizon. (And I can’t see Melisandre just waiting in the Stormlands while it happens.)

Tyrion feels the Doomsday Clock on his back all the time now. The Lannisters are severely outnumbered now; as long as Tywin continues to lose to Robb, the combined Baratheon army-navy dwarf the remaining forces of King’s Landing. (Did I say “dwarf”? I meant “demon monkey”.) Tyrion scrambles about, trying to uncover the defense plans of King Joffrey the Lost Cause, because Cersei would rather drink than accept Tyrion’s help. (It feels like we’re losing Cersei.) It turns out, the defense plan is Wildfire, the Westeros version of NAPALM! And A LOT OF IT. Bron is unconvinced that this is a valid plan, since cowardly men with napalm equals a burnt town full of burnt cowardly men. At the end there, it feels like Tyrion has a better plan for this Wildfire…

Theon has his ship, and he’s soooo proud of it…for about 37 seconds. His crew doesn’t give a goat turd about him or his command; raiding fishermen is a crap job for a crap captain, and he can swim out to the crap boat himself for all they crappin’ care. However, Dagmer the First Mate seems to have some sense of duty to whichever captain he serves, and sparks a bit of inspiration within the lost Theon: a true ironborn doesn’t necessarily “follow orders”. If he picks a more satisfying target than puny fishermen, he might win the crew over. They wouldn’t be able to hold that more satisfying target (Torrhen's Square) for long, because whatever garrison forces remain in Winterfell would come after it. But then…here’s where you can see Theon’s gears turning, and the foreshadowing begins to flap in the breeze.

Cut over to Lord Bran, as Ser Roderick reports that Torrhen’s Square has indeed been occupied. Bran allows him to charge off with the men to recover it. The foreshadowing flaps harder as the breeze rises to a howl. Bran goes out for a “walk” while trying to figure out what a three-eyed raven means, and describing his latest dream where the ocean comes to drown Winterfell. And that’s when the foreshadowing rips loose and smacks us all across the face: Theon, armed with years of knowledge and a bloodthirsty crew, intends to actually take Winterfell. (I SWEAR TO YOU I thought I was KIDDING!!!) That poor stupid fool. Giving up a virtual brother for a father and sister that won’t even thank him for it. God help him if he actually hurts someone who matters. (Catelyn! Don’t go home!!)

Arya has found a certain level of operating independence as Tywin Lannister’s attendent; today, her path finally crosses with the prisoner she set free the day she was captured. I should have known better that I was gonna have to know this Jaqen H’ghar (had to look that name up). I LOVE how Jaqen talks. He is capable of speaking normally, but when it seems like he wants his words to have extra weight, he cuts to an odd style of “unfamiliar third person”: he knows he means himself or Arya, but instead of using their names, he reduces them down to “a man” and “a girl”. At any rate, he believes in the “Red God”…Death? War? When I tried to look up the Gods in the literature wiki, it felt like I was veering too close to spoilers, so I kinda wish HBO would be a bit more forthcoming with the which Gods are for whom. (Or is that coming up? Does it even matter?)…and the Red God doesn’t appreciate being cheated of his lives. (Final Destination, anyone?) So the balance must be restored: the three prisoners’ lives that Arya saved must be returned, and Jaqen will apparently kill any three people Arya names. With a bit of disbelief, she throws out what must have been a “gimme” name: the Tickler, the Harrenhal torturer who loves chest rats.

Tywin puts her on the spot during a “Let’s ***** about Robb” meeting, and forces her to admit she’s a Northerner. (Wisely, she keeps hidden that she’s an actual Winterfeller.) He eggs her on about Robb, and she gets a little fanciful about Robb’s “wolfen” abilities. And when she stares at Tywin and finally delivers the line I’ve loved since the previews—“Anyone can be killed.”—she DOESN’T LET UP THE STARE. Then, of course, the Tickler winds up with his head on backwards. And Arya’s gears begin to turn… (Will she go for the gold and take out Tywin? Or will she shoot for the moon and call for King Joffrey?)

The Night’s Watch (rather, the Lost Legion) are in the middle of rocky nowhere, meeting up with one of the most seasoned Rangers (apparently survived the last Winter stuck on the wrong side of the Wall). He reports that Mance Rayder is almost ready to move, and if he does, Westeros will be crushed by his infinite forces of every Wildling anywhere. The only way to prevent this is to sneak right into his camp with a teeny strike force and put a proton torpedo down the two-meter thermal exhaust port, just below the main port. In other words, no Mance, no invasion. Jon Snow takes his shot with Lord Mormont, and finally gets promoted to Ranger to join Quorin Halfhand in taking out a Wildling lookout position.

Daenerys has apparently taught her dragons to cook and eat their food: it is absolutely adorable to watch the black one flick up his “pilot light”, barbecue a chunk of meat, and chug it down. (Dragons, being mythical creatures, can take many forms as per their creator, but I see that these dragons do not have independent wings. More like bats or wyverns or pterodactyls, their wings are part of their forearms.)

Qarth is a sudden reversal for Daenerys: she spent all that time acclimating to the Dothraki, but now she’s reverting back to her Targaryen Princess life. The shift is welcomed by Doreah, her civilized servant, but really upsetting Irri, her Dothraki one. (Frankly, I welcome the return of the more regal Daenerys.) Daenerys even has to play interference during Daxos’ party before her tribe attempts to dismantle an expensive garden fixture. She meets the leader of the Warlocks guild (creepy), while Jorah meets a mysterious woman rather concerned with protection of the Mother of Dragons (coolest mask ever!). With all this new “court” attention, one wonders how long Daenerys will remain “Dothraki”.

Later, Daxos throws out his perception that Jorah loves her, but she shuts that down quick. Then he attempts to more or less bribe a matrimony out of Daenerys with the promise of his Scrooge McDuck vault. And she’s really considering it until Jorah’s negative vote turns just a wee bit romantic. You can see Daenerys start to question “DOES he really love me?”—kudos to Emilia Clarke for really nailing the facial expressions—and their conversation gets really…“professional” after that, even though they could both be perceived as “solemnly flirtatious”.

Generally I thought the last few episodes have been ok- still a lot of made-yup stuff, but much more in keeping with the feel of the books.

Still very concerned by the missing characters though- there doesn't seem to be much planning ahead: (VAGUE SPOILERS MAY FOLLOW)

Wex Pike, yeah he's an obvious one to miss out - unless he later on proves to be the only person with crucial information about certain missing persons.

No sign of Jojen and Meera either.

Currently, their part seems to be going to Osha. But If Osha goes on the Reed's journey, then Who will not-Wex be spotting come Dance?

I'm almost hoping that GRRM sets out to write Winds of Winter with a plan of "how much crap can I drop them in for writing out all my minor characters," but then, we've already lost all the male Tullys, and they don't seem worried about that…

Doubt the show will make it to Dance. I hope it gets canceled. From what I have read online this last episode was terrible.

Toqtamish said:

Dunno where you read, but the Westeros forum was full of praises and even posts saying that this episode is the best of the whole series so far. Have to see it myself thou.

Also really hope they continue all the way to dance.

Toqtamish said:

Not sure why you would judge something without even seeing it yourself.

Staton said:

Yeah - really ahrd to tkae your criticsms seriosuly if you aren't even watching.

Martin is not so rgeat a writer that hsi stuff has to be adapated word for word. Yeah porbably no Reeds, no Blackfish (overrated anyway), and Lorch didn't get eaten by a bear. I am fine with a few changes - and I think the series is excellent. looking forward ot buying the Blurya box set for this season as well.

We all have favorite minor characters who've been cut. I think that's unavoidable. The series simply could not be made as a strict adaptation, it would not work. Sadly, the other facet of this is that many of us are going to think our favorite side characters shouldn't have been cut for some-reason-or-another, and the obvious danger is to fall into arguing about who's really important, who isn't, and what is needed to maintain "the plot."

For example: I love the Reeds, I'm worried that we won't see them at all. I'm imagining Osha taking Bran all the way to the cave (though that would raise the question of what happens to Rickon), and it could work. The only real reason I worry about the Reeds being left out is their connection to their father, and that he is the only man alive that knows what happened in the Tower of Joy (not that the series has even mentioned it yet).

HOWEVER, at the same time I have to realize that GRRM is on the inside here, and I have to trust that anything that "the plot" (and he'd know what it is better than any of us) is intact, and that the important story will be told.

There's also going to be character development that we'll miss. I've read someone here say that they didn't think Robert got developed properly as the "fallen knight," and maybe that's so, but they are operating on such strict time limits, there's bound to be development left out.

Yes, the series is making explicit things that were only implied in the books. That doesn't mean they're "deviating" or "changing the books," just presenting a different point of view; I think that's an important thing to remember. This series is not the books being retold. It is the story being told by a different storyteller, a different point of view.

To answer the question in the name of this thread:

Is this series going to be a replacement for the books? Of course not. I never expected that from it, and I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to have done so. So what do I expect? I hope for (and the first season has made me expect from later seasons) a good, solid adaptation, with strong acting and good writing. I expect a series that conveys the soul of the story, and inspires me and other to read (or re-read) the source material.

I'm not bothered by the changes aimed for simplification or speed,of the plot (in Return of the King I was glad they substituted the whoke Shire purge for a simple talk in the tavern that fulfilled the gist of it).

SPOILERS BELOW

But I'm not liking the changes in motivations and personalities. In the books Theon was pretty bent on betraying Robb the moment he set sail to Pyke (or so I remember), but in the series he was coerced into it. Think they tried to make him conflicted… So they intend we don't cheer when he falls on Ramsay's claws?

If we were talking about a "normal" man, it would be a completely aceptable master-servant treatment the one Tywin gives to Arya, but we are talking about the man who hasn't smiled for over 25 years and put his other in law to parade naked in the streets. He is being too warm.

Stannis I think is more a matter of bad casting/acting than script. He appears weak, he talks weak, he does not strike me as the man who could get the loyalty of someone even after chopping his fingers.

Littlefinger… I think they are revealing his character too early. It will be no surprise to anyone when he does what he does at the end of season/book three, while in the book I was completely off-guard (and loved it).

I would prefer Loras still blamed Brienne for Renly's murder, but this is very minor.

I miss the clansmen. Want more Davos screentime. Would decapitate all my Black Brothers as soon as I laid my eyes on that Ygritte with no inch of remorse (have a problem with redheads, hope the wife don't read this).

I think people tend to forget that even characters who do bad things often have underlying motivations. Sometimes in the show it needs to be a little more explicitly laid down since some characters don't have PoV chapters.

Theon and Cersei both do appalling things. Yet both have emotional conflicts but you didn't get a good grasp of them till their own PoV chapters. It makes them a little more sympathetic although that doesn't mean you have to absolve them either.

When characters are acted out you have little choice but to reveal things. Theon's look when he kills Roderick is the real Theon, purely conflicted by what he does.

As for Tywin, he respects competence in general. Also, I think he's curious about Arya and likely suspects she is higher born then she currently claims.

jgt7771 said:

And that flipwit actually pulls it off. Obviously sparsely defended, Winterfell falls quickly to Theon’s marauders: Luwin barely has enough time to whip off a raven! Reaching new lows, Theon bullies poor Bran and hacks off Rodrik’s head (being rather inept at both), and cementing my (and Rodrik’s) opinion that this Iron Twit is lost. At the moment, I’m not interested in his redemption any more than I care for the same for most Lannisters; I look forward to his PAIN. I could tell the MOMENT Osha made her play that (a) we were gonna see her nude (it's not TV, it's HBO), and (b) the perpetually-horny Saltsucker was gonna fall for it. I was kinda hoping that Osha would just disembowel him right there, but I’ll settle for her getting the rest of the Starks out of Greyjoy’s sty: Daddy won't like that.

After a little more flirting with Talisa, and a motherly reminder that his duty is to live a life without a delicious Talisa center, Robb gets wind of Theon’s BS, and rightly wants to drop everything and go claim some Greyjoy body parts of his own. Shame he’s in the middle of this **** war. But there’s a countryman with a garrison of his own that could probably take out one ship’s worth of pirates. I'd be very interested in seeing Robb question

Apparently Tyrion wasn’t kidding at all about sending Myrcella off to be Dorne-wed, and Cersei makes him VERY aware that he’s never going to be happy again, if she has anything to say about it. Not a very promising bulletin for Shae, to be sure, but it doesn’t seem like Cersei was making a directed threat, just a blanket one, which is probably why Tyrion just moves off without saying anyth…OOP! RIOT!

…over a cowpie?!? RRRRRRR!

Seriously! We DON’T NEED any more reasons to HATE JOFFREY!!! It’s absolutely PATHETIC how this inbred cockroach still whines, “But I’m King! But I’m King!” every time someone doesn’t mewl at his feet. SO HAPPY Tyrion smacked him one, but sooner or later, Tyrion’s just got to give up on this brat. Cersei too.

Meanwhile, Sansa is separated from the group and then a good portion of her clothes as three would-be rapists corner her in some dirty hut to discuss their dissatisfaction with the current political climate. They all raise some very good points, but from out of nowhere, the Hound argues some extremely terminal counterpoints. I hope this means one more push towards Sansound: I’m just not certain when the Hound growls at Tyrion, “I didn’t do it for YOU,” that he means he did it for the King either.

Arya keeps getting lucky with her clever answers to Tywin’s constant prodding—not sure if Tywin thinks there’s something to gain by that, or if he’s just passing time by playing mind games—but her luck with thievery is a different story. She may have managed to avoid being recognized by Littlefinger—although I think he absolutely did, but Baelish keeps his hole cards facedown until he plays them—but Lorch ain’t buying any of her not-stolen-message skylarking. Good thing she’s got a Jaqen in her pocket, although not only did she waste another of her three wishes on another halfwitted Lannister stooge, but it looks like Harrenhal’s about to go into lockdown. Better make that last name count, Arya!

Back to Baelish for a second: now that he’s out of favor with Cersei, and (I would guess) that Stannis could barely tolerate sharing the same planetary atmosphere with him, let alone his presence, he’s trying to get Tywin (over Cersei’s head) to hook up with the Tyrells. I guess the Tyrells have a decent level of manpower, and I suppose a pincer movement on the rest of the Riverrun could put a dent in Stannis’ land war. Not that I want Baelish to gain anything at this point.

Quorin spends some telling Jon that everything he thinks, knows, or feels is wrong, and then they kill that wildling scout nest. Well, except for this fur-clad redhead named Ygritte, whose surprising beauty gives Jon pause. Quorin tells Jon to execute her while the rest of the squad move up the mountain (far away from the impending cliché). Jon fails to realize he’s caught in the deadly cliché, and once he’s distracted, Ygritte rabbits off. Merry chase through Iceland…snow tackle…omg Jon’s been left behind…we’re gonna die if we don’t preserve body warmth…okay I’ll spoon your hidden-but-obviously-knockout body but only because I don’t want to die of cliché exposure. Yeah, sorry, but this feels derivative as all hell. However, I will give Ygritte points for her “innocent” member-groping bottom—that was cute—but I hope the cliché blows itself out before too much damage occurs.

Daenerys keeps trying to trade on her lofty intentions, and however much I like her, I can’t blame the Spice King for not investing in her less-than-promising prospects. Maybe “Mother of Dragons” will carry more clout when your dragons can do more damage than a match and a can of hair spray. Oh, and it also might help if you actually POSSESS them. Yes, someone has taken the dragons and killed Irri—there was a lot of fuss about this character’s name; maybe this is why that wasn’t a big deal?—and has apparently taken them to this pinkish-orange tower that would seem to be ominous…if I had read the books and it was more than just some orangey-pink tower? A perfect storm of outlying clichés to those not familiar with such Easter eggs.

A quickish response to the parts of the thread I could read without spoilers:

Having not read the books, I find the show to be fantastic. Better than most sagas of any setting or genre. But it's pretty rare that I invest time in stuff like this without having more knowledge of the source material. (If I haven't read it, why should I care? Example: the Twilight series.) So I have seen a lot of adapted material, often with friends and family who aren't familiar with it at all, and while I might have a few issues with [Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Marvel Comics, etc.], my companions do not. I would also tend to believe that the "unwashed masses" will always outnumber the "hardcore fans", so if THEY love it, it will thrive, regardless of what problems the hardcore fans have with it.

In such rare cases where I find myself as one of THEM and not one of the "insider fans", and thoroughly enjoy the movie/show as the product that it is (Dexter, True Blood, Thrones), I have to say--gonna borrow Jaqen for a second here--sorry, it's a man's problem, not the show's. A man can either get over it or not, but if a man does not, the rest of THEM are just going to dismiss a man's opinions as "too hardcore to matter", and generally ignore a man.

If the last episode was anything to go by, then by series 3, they probably won't need to pay Martin any Royalties. The whole thing has just gone so far from the plot of the books as to be unrecognisable.

It's not just 1 or 2 characters being tweaked or minor folk left out, it's massive chunks of plot being dreamt up from nowhere.

Jaqen killing the wrong people
Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, not Rooses
No Tully's - Edmure, Blackfish, no Riverrun
Jon and Ygritte, no idea what's going on there.
Dany far more mad and angry than she ought to be at this point, having her dragons stolen and her handmaidens murdered? what was that all about? how are wer ever going to have the brilliant "It is NOT known" moment during the Mereen pit fights)
Reeds?
Osha?
Asha?
Devan?
Clansmen?
Florents?
Selyse (locked in a tower? wtf??), Shireen?
What's Littlefinger upto? well, we know in full detail because it's being shown scene-by-scene, please leave your imagination or ability to be surprised at the door.
Tulisa????? (Jeyne?)
Alton Lannister
Bronn of the Goldcloaks, later married to… oh hang on a minute

Current predictions for series 3. After Davos's fleet successfully capture Kings Landing, Robb will engage Stannis in single-combat and win independence for the North. (Tywin never made it to Blackwater, as Jaqen had killed all of his men. He is betrayed by the Freys who kill Jamie and send his body to the Eyrie. Jon becomes King Beyond the Wall, and Persuades the Free Folk to Join Robb in fighting off an invasion from the Warlocks of Qarth and their dragons.

Doran Martell thinks about doing something, but decides to wait. (Even HBO wouldn't change something THAT much)

Mighty Jim said:

Okay, I think this has provided me with enough examples that I can explain my point of view.

THIS POST IS FULL OF SPOILER. You have been warned.

I think it's very important not to confuse details with plot.

Plot: That there is a strange assassin who pledges to kill three people for Arya, and eventually gives her the means to enter the House of Black & White. Detail: Who those three people are (provided that they remain people who aren't terribly important). Really, what does it matter who they are?

Plot: That Arya serves a term as cupbearer to an "enemy" Detal: Exactly who it is.

Frankly, the Tullys are just not that important to the overall events of the story. Sorry.

Jon and Ygritte: What is important in this relationship is that Jon learn empathy for the Wildlings. Other than that, it doesn't matter how it happens.

The Reeds: also not that important (as much as I love them), except in possibly providing a connection to their father (who I still think is really important). All they really do is guide Bran to the cave. Osha can easily fill that role, though that would make me question who takes Rickon. I still think it's possible that we'll see the Reeds later.

Not sure what you mean by your "Osha?" question. She is there, and doing important things.

I assume that with "Asha?" you're meaning to bring up her name change to "Yara." I agree that it's stupid, but I've actually already heard people complain that they can't tell characters apart. Whatever.

Devan, the Clansmen, and the Florents don't really add anything to what's going on right now. I haven't missed them.

Now I really feel like I'm just repeating myself. What is important here is the the big things happen, and things happen for the right reasons. You know, exactly what Bronn gets bribed with to turn on Tyrion isn't nearly as important as the fact that he does.

Who Robb breaks his oath to the Freys with is not as important as that he does.

So far this series has not deviated from the plot of the books at all; it has only deviated in the events it has depicted to carry that plot.

I find it unfortunate that people are bothered so terribly by that.

Jaqen killing the wrong people - Random Retainers of the Lannisters who have no bearing of the plot

Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, not Rooses - /Shrug. What hasn't occurred may still occur.

No Tully's - Edmure, Blackfish, no Riverrun - Disappointing but fixing up another whole castle set and adding a tonne of characters costs money. May still appear anyways.

Jon and Ygritte, no idea what's going on there. - Superficial change is superficial. Ygritte is more than happy to try and seduce a Night's Watchmen. Jon is uncomfortable with killing an unarmed female prisoner. Just like the books.

Dany far more mad and angry than she ought to be at this point, having her dragons stolen and her handmaidens murdered? what was that all about? how are wer ever going to have the brilliant "It is NOT known" moment during the Mereen pit fights) - Targ's are angry. Doesn't mean she won't check her head later. Maybe she what she needs is a big acid trip.

Reeds? - What matters is that Bran goes North of the Wall with Hodor.
Osha? - See above.

Asha? - Yara Greyjoy has successfully captured Deepwood Motte. Will make fun of Theon after she bumps uglies with Qarl the Maid.

Devan? - That Davos dude has way too many kids. Probably can't even keep track of them himself.

Clansmen? - Threatening to cut off Pycelle's **** and feed it to the goats. Settles for beard. Unsure if that's fed to the goats.

Florents? - Got sacrificed to Rh'llor off screen.

Selyse (locked in a tower? wtf??), Shireen? - Hey they mentioned Selyse. No one wants to look at a mustached lady anyways.

What's Littlefinger upto? well, we know in full detail because it's being shown scene-by-scene, please leave your imagination or ability to be surprised at the door. - Would you prefer dramatic narration from a PoV character?

Tulisa????? (Jeyne?) - "Hi, Mom. I just porked a random plot device. What do you mean there's no romance and she has no personality because we're not PoV characters?"

Alton Lannister - **** blonde bastards. They're everywhere.

Bronn of the Goldcloaks, later married to… oh hang on a minute - That dude could use a good woman. Maybe he'll get fixed up later with random Lannister sycophant.

playgroundpsychotic said:

My feelings exactly.

Yeah I really don't see a problem with what they are doing. Nothing big has changed yet.

KristoffStark said:

Precisely. Well said, ser.

Dany's dragons being kidnapped are not "details"

nor is the distinction between Jon turning Yrgitte loose with Qoren and his men a stone's throw away, and close enough to shout for help, as opposed to however she will wander off now. Jon is supposed to go over to the Wildlings at Qoren's command, firm in his loyalty to the watch, not amid mixed emotions about the wildlings.

When Arya had her 3 names, the real Lannisters were far, far away (the ones who mattered) - if Tywin were there, would she really have passed up the opportunity so lightly to take Cersei's father from her, the way Cersei & Joffrey took hers (I know Cersei didn't mean for Ned to die, but Arya wasn't making that distinction). She is supposed to be serving as cup-bearer to an uncertain ally - she has no notion of the Bolton treachery until much later, not the head of the family of her most hated enemies.

Obviously HBO were going to show more of the Rob/Jeyne thing than the books did, but this has changed the nature of their relationship entirely. Book Robb is wounded, distraught at the news from Winterfell, and finds solace in the arms of a strange girl, operating under a very short leash from her mother. HBO Robb has been flirting with a foreigner for a long period of time, meaning they either change the character's identity altogether, altering the whole relationship to the Lannsiter, or it turns out she's been lying to him all along, thus changing their relationship.

The show would generally be much better with P-o-V character narration and flashbacks, much closer to the flavour of things, better at keeping things in doubt/suspense and all the others types of subtlety which have been replaced by gratutious nudity.

No the show would be much more to your liking (as a book reader) if they did PoV narration and flashbacks. It wouldn't make it a better show for the general audience. I'd much rather them make changes to allow the show to be more accessible than having one or two seasons that follow the books to a t and then getting canceled. You obviously feel different, but that doesn't make the show bad, imo. Just not the show you wanted.

Staton said:

I absolutely agree, and as a member of that general audience, I'm frankly in a better position to know if the show is good or not without the book details.

Am I enjoying the show? Hell yes.

Is my enjoyment of the show detracted upon in any way by me not knowing any of these extensive book details? Um, no. I can't see how it would be, since I don't know those details.

Are these extensive details cautiously headed by a SPOILER warning, seeing as how I don't know them? No, they aren't. That can't be right, can it? Nobody would be trying to ruin my ignorant enjoyment out of spite, now would they? That would be awfully selfish, and maybe even a little mean.

As I mentioned before, I don't mind the changes to speed up the plot - in the book Arya and the boys flee the slaughter and get caught again a couple chapters ahead, no problem in making them get taken to Harenhall imediatelly for me.

Besides the changes to some characters personalities I pointed above, I'm starting to get a little worried for the future books. It's one thing to make changes when adapting a "closed" work (again, for instance, Lord of the Rings), and another to alter things in a story that still has no ending.

I'm slightly fearful that, with the popularity of the show that overlooks completely some mysterious plot points (Tower of Joy, for instance), when the time comes for the next books these storylines get unresolved, or worse get retconned to better adapt to the show storyline. Like, if in the new book George decides to kill the Reeds in the first few chapters since most of the new readers won't care enough for them. Yeah, I know nobody is safe (learned it the hard way with Ned, Jeor, Robb, Tywyn…) but that's exactly the point, George is already trigger happy, don't tempt him!

Leo Malk said:

**** IT! ARE YOU FRAKKING KIDDING ME?!? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?

jgt7771 said:

I hope you'll note that before my major post, I DID post a spoiler warning.