Is there any way to add Sisters of Battle to Deathwatch? I actuall play in a six person Dark Heresy game. And my wife and the GM's wife play female charecters in Dark Heresy.

So, I guess my question is two part. How can I get our wives interested in Death Watch? Could we work in Sisters some how? Just an idea.

LordZon said:

Genuine enthusiasm works best unless it's overdone. Like laughter it can be infectious.

LordZon said:

Sure but it would have to a major hero sister (stat-wise) if she is to keep up with the Astartes. Alternatives would be Assassins or Inquisitors, all Ascension-level. Blood of Martyrs should provide some new material for the Sororitas too.

Alex

LordZon said:

AK's enthusiasm comment is spot on.

I'd also add that you may need to convince them that your DW adventures will not simply be the horde grind of Final Sanction (and actually make them not just combat). If they're big on DH and the intrigue of that game, the perceptions of Space Marines may be not what they're interseted in. Sell them on the finer points (which the book does to an extent, but I perosnally feel some of those RP focus sections are a bit...light).

Or, let them play a male character.

Or, let them play a female space marine.

For some reason, a large portion of the fan base regards both of these suggestions as heresy. But, if you and your group have fun, that's the only thing that counts.

Michigan said:

Being on the other side of things as a guy that has played female characters, I can attest that the first one is not everyone's cup of tea and that it requires a completely different suspension of disbelief to to play the opposite gender in face-to-face RPGs. If the two players in question can do it and have no problem with it; then okay, problem solved. If not, hand the players a copy of Ascension and come up with a series of missions where the kill-team encounters a number of problems they can't solve by bolter fire alone such as sparking an insurgency on a Tau world.

The second, I'd leave that up to the GM. Personally I don't care, if it was my call I'd let it slide if the player presented an appropriately plausible write-up. However, making a chapter from scratch (to say nothing of making one that raises so many questions, would they even have the same Gene-seed implants for starters?) is not everyone's cup of tea either.

As for the OP: while Sisters are the obvious choice, I have to say that you're probably overthinking the problem. There is no gender bias on any of the Ascension careers, so why not one of those?

What type of characters have the wives preferred to play in the past is the question that leaps to my mind, certainly at least trying to make Deathwatch dance to a most familiar refrain. Depending on what the answer is you might have to bend the RAW somewhat to make the elements that make it distinctive apply to all the characters.

Kage

Bah, its one single sentance from the rulebook with a line being drawn through it. As I recall, the origin of the “all Marines must be male” bit of fluff first appeared in an article in a very early White Dwarf (#98) and not in any of the original rulebooks, although that artical was reprinted in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, circa 1989. This was, mind you, an era when Space Marines rode jetbikes, Harlequins could use Land Raiders, and the forces of Chaos did not yet exist!

Okay, sure, this one tiny bit of fluff that "because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types" all Space Marines must be male still exists; this twenty-plus year old article by Rick Priestley keeps getting recycled. SO WHAT!? I'm not playing in Mr. Priestley's campaign, nor is he ever likly to show up at my table... I want to have women and men in the Adeptus Astartes. So, I do.

Anyone who's got a problem with it, can talk to the Lighting Claw.

Michigan said:

Erm, well, if you don't consider over 20 years of established game-universe history to be "one tiny bit of fluff", you are stuck with either using Ascension-level Sisters of Battle, or using other equally powerful female characters (Inquisitors, Assassins, etc.), or make the whole party first-level SoBs, working for the Ordo Hereticus instead of the Ordo Xenos. They would be much less powerful than a first-level Deathwatch party, but the good news is that there would be a lot less math/fewer dice/less abusive min-maxing.

Or, make a bog-standard first-rank Deathwatch character, say, an Assault Marine with a penchant for flamers and two-handed chainswords, but call the character a Sister of Battle. The character would be on a perfectly even-footing with all of the Astartes and "in-universe" would just be an incredibly bad-ass member of the Adepta Sororitas, which is exactly the sort of sister that would wind up getting attached to a kill-team.

This is, imho, the simplest way to include a female character of equal power to the male marines if you insist on following the "all-boys club" bit.

I remain awed that this continues to be a problem for people. When it comes to a roleplaying campaign "Do what thou will shall be the whole of they law." Well, as long as it is fun and no-one gets hurt. Sure, no-one in the Canon Divergence Police (CDP! ) is going to agree with you, but this is something that has dogged playing around in the 40k universe from the get-go.

The question still stands with regards to what characters that were previously played. If the lady in general hasn't shown an inclination to play a combat-heavy character before, then Deathwatch just isn't going to be their cup of tea.

Kage

Here we go ...

Isn't that the point? There is no real need to revisit the same old arguments, but merely to identify the trends of the players in question and whether there is really an issue.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

They may be old arguments for you but not for people who are new to the boards perhaps?

Alex

I can recall having this argument the weekend after that damned article by Preistly was first seen in print. My chapter has female marines in it, and so does my Warhammer 40K universe. It suits me and mine, which is all that really matters.

Michigan said:

But do they wear lipstick in battle? Lol, I guess it depends on chapter. (Not ridiculing the idea though; it's your interpretation and I'm fine with different interpretations of the same setting.)

Alex

Please, this is a universe where space vikings, space romans, space knights, space celts, space jesuits, and space renaissance italians regularly get into swordfights with space elves, space goblins, and space robot-mummies.

Would wearing lipstick in battle be that out of place in a universe where hundred-foot tall, walking, weaponized, cathedrals are a common tool of war?

Join the Titan Legions! See the Universe! (Try not to get stepped on.)

Kage2020 said:

You know... I do think you're right. And has the OP commented on what kind of characters the ladies in his group like to play?

Michigan said:

Not at all. I was just trying to figure out if you want your girls to look sexy while slaying the enemies of the God-Emperor. Makes for a whole new set of battle preparations. "Sister Claudia - would you be so kind to pass me the Sacred Mascara of Drusia?" Well, why not?

Otoh, I tend to prefer the natural look of girls. Or in this case 100-400 year old women.

Michigan said:

If I was about to ask if they wear lipstick too but that might come off as disrespectful when I have no disrespect for any of that whatsoever. Just consider this post some attempt at light-hearted humour, willya?

Alex

Its a thread about a minor detail in an overly-complicated game of Let's Pretend, based on a game played with Toy Soldiers and Plastic Tanks. Serious is what I do at when I'm work.

LordZon said:

Well, try having them spend something like 3000xp on either a SoB, an Assassin or an Inquisitor. Heck, let them make a Navigator since Astartes ships have them on board.

Someone did the xp calculation to figure out how to make a comparable non-Astartes character to play in Death Watch.

Hiromoon said:

Yeah, that "someone" was Fantasy Flight Games. Like I said in the second post in this thread, there is a sidebar in the Deathwatch core rule book that lists the exact total. A character from DH or RT will not be an exact equal - DH characters often lack the "staying power" in combat but make up for it with massive skills, and RT characters generally pale in comparisson to either combat-wise, but the resources and skill set of RT characters in incredible.

That said, they have their own quirks that GMs need to consider. I mean, you think a properly tooled-up Devastator Marine can shred hordes? Wait until Captain Harlock calls in an orbital bombardment...

Michigan said:

I really dont think they ever did the math, they just make a statement that DW characters are equal to rank 9 DH characters. But if you look at the math a DW character undergoes, I find that dubious, as some of their "automatic" skills are listed as costing 800XP when the same skill for a DH character is roughly 100 or 200 XP.

When you take into account that some of the Astartes extra starting power is gear and traits that purchases of technology could mimic, a Dark Heresy character at a lower rank could easily match up. Muscle grafts, bone laces, cybernetic respiration, drugs, power armour, talents and so forth go a long way.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I totally agree they never really sat down and did a mathmatical calculation, but it seems to be close to me. 19 skills at 200 xp would be 3800xp, then factor in the 13 talents at say 300 xp each is another 3900xp, then figure DW characters start with essentially +10 to all attributes (figuring in primary stats at the starting level, that's 350xp for +10) is another 3150xp, putting you right at about 10,800xp. Only off by a couple of thousand, which you could say replaces the 1200 or so thrones required to replicate dark sight, vox casters, magboots, recoil gloves, and the like, and might account for the unnatural strength and toughness (which have massive implications inside of combat- also it would cost a DH character 3,000 xp to get the traits), superior PA, and weapons starting off doing 2d10+ that no one else in the universe (for reasons I don't fully agree with) can use. Perhaps there are means to aquire wealth and upgrades I haven't read about that would put these numbers into question, but from a basic DH perspective (which is unfortunately all I can offer), things seem to shake out alright.

I think you'd be hard pressed to match up a low rank DH character. On the skill front DH characters can win hands down (look at the thread titled "Equivilent character levels") at least initially, but the DW character can stomp all over even higher rank (or ascended) DH characters when they get upset.

End result, as always, however, is that the GM just needs to be conscious of what the abilities of his/her players are and adjust the game accordingly so that they all get to show off their particular set of abilities.

I don't understand the obsession with making all PCs on equal footing. In Rifts, we had Glitter Boys (huge power armours) accompanied by Pixies and simple Rogue Scholars. (And we didn't even use demi-gods.)

With the right spirit it can work. Players should focus less on what someone else can do better but rather do their own thing in play. In last week's RT my Navigator went along with other party members into a shabby tavern on Footfall. He was really out of place there and not much of a use but it was fun. And besides if he says he wants to join the party, he'll join - not even the Rogue Trader would be able to stop him.

Alex

Have one play a female inquisitor and the other a sister of silence or a sororitas who accompany the inquisitor as a body guard or special throne agent. The inquisitor would probably be the one in charge, so its not like they will play second violin to the space marines.

Yeah, you are going to have problems skill-wise between the two systems, but the space marines are going to have superior gear. Everyone nneds to agree to "playtesting" it for a couple of sessions and modify as needed. If your players don't take the rules too seriously you can make it work.

If you do this and get good experiences with mixing the system, there are quite a lot of us around here, that would like to hear about it.