Assassin already does sniper better than Guardsman even in regular Deathwatch. This becomes more pronounced when the usual Ascended classes are added in.

I would wonder if an ascended psyker would not be able to outperform the supposed "ultimate" psyker that the librarian represents. At first glance the librarian appears to be fairly pigeon holed when you take into account the selection of abilities at his disposal. An ascended psyker on the other hand has the potential to become a true monster....

Blizzard36 said:

Then let the assassin focus on close combat work. ;-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

Guardsman can roll into Vindicare (stormtrooper isn't that good of an ascended class), and the ascended skill groups trump most of the skills and talents that the prior assasin would've gotten that would give them the uber sniper abilities.

But yes, the Marines will outclass most of the 'combat' classes from the other lines, if by nothing else, equipment.

A Primaris Psyker will probably be a bit more powerful on the psychic power aspect I believe (bar perhaps some powers which are nice), but their survival will be knowhere near a librarian I think (unless there are some powers giving a bunch of wounds/ap/reduction I've missed).

If the Guardsman has gone the officer route, have them try requisitioning troops appropriate for the mission at hand. May as well put all those leadership talents to good use, right? Besides, when the Imperial Guard goes to war against a horde of something, don't they bring their own hordes?

-Kirov

This is true, and I think it would be fun to see some horde vs horde fights. But the Guardsman is far from the only class that gets access to command abilities in DH. In fact, basically every class in that book can do an officer version if they want and the Priest in particular gets the abilities earlier and does the job better mechanically. Still, fluff wise they would be the most appropriate and the GM could make up some house rules or social rules to enforce that part of the setting.

In my experiance when the systems are mixed DH is the primary environment and the others are worked into it. I hadn't considered working the others into DW, and if the commander aspect of the guard is played on right I think that could work really well. I tried a commander Guardsman in basic DH, and it was really clunky running all your NPCs at the end. The Horde rules would simplify that greatly.

I also hadn't considered the Guardsman to Vindicare switch, I'll have to look into it more. I think that has potential, especially if the paths other than Scout/Sniper can get into it.

Blizzard36 said:

It just says "Guardsman; Inquisitor, Interrogator, Crusader, Storm Trooper, and Vindicare Assassin."

If you're going a combat route the Vindicare is a no brainer- Inquisitor and Interrogator have some cool starting skills/talents (like "any") but quickly turn into peer and influence talents. Crusader is a mix of peer and some kind of cool skills/talents. Storm Trooper is mostly talents and skills you probably already have as a guardsman unless you went with a total lack of weapon or combat proficiencies (heavy weapons, true grit, etc.). Vindicare gives you the most interesting combat abilities as far as I can tell and the mastery skills replace any skills you may have been lacking previously.

Though if you go from a heavy weapons guy into the Assassin career path, you'd better have a good reason to give to your GM as to why the temple would consider you- heavy weapons aren't exactly the temple's style.

As for guards going to commander route, I feel bad for them- it's something I hope the new total war supplement next fall/winter rectifies (I'd love to play an Imperial Officer)- fellowship is too damned expensive to raise; you end up dumping so much of your hard earned xp into it you're left with few other skills and talents.

well the way i see it, if you are bringing a character over from DH or RT then that character is pretty much fully inducted into the the inquisition or similar body (the mechanicum, or one of the assassin temples for example) or a rouge trader that has really earned his due and is very powerful. we aren't talking about a group of henchmen that don't know the business end of a lasgun,

at level one all the SM know is war, and thats reflected in their build, my devastator marine knows his gun inside and out, he can really reach out and touch you, but he doesn't know a cogitator from a servitor's saline feed tube. and i don't expect him to be a master orator and a firebrand the way my cleric is, at the same time i don't expect my cleric to soak up multiple shotgun blasts to the torso and just shrug it off. my devastator's M.O. for gathering information is find a dead body and eat it's brain (which has never worked) or intimidate the hell out of someone until they tell the kill team what we need to know. my cleric could charm his way into nearly anywhere, interrogate the hell out of people, and could blather his way out of most anything he couldn't fight his way out of.

in the end its a trade off

-C.C.

Haven't read through this all - just make sure when u are comparing them you take into account Unnatural Toughness x 2, Unnatural Strength x 2, free gear and all the physcial mods built into an SM

Don't suffer from blood losss, unaffected by sleep deprivation, resistant to poisons, True Grit, eating people to know their secrets, resistant to gases, Heightned Senses (Sight), Heightened Senses (Hearing), Free Medicae test, radiation resistant, poison detection, vacuum resistant, spit acid, Ambidextrous, Bulging Biceps, training in all weapons, Killing Strike, Nerves of Steel, Quick Draw, resistance (Psychic Powers), Unarmed Master

Yeah, and they're without a doubt a killing machine, though they loose their ability to talk with standard people. That's where non-space marine character come in handy...

Hiromoon said:

Oh agreed - I think there is deffinitly use for non-SM top be working with SM. DW kill things real well, INQ Investigate real well etc. I have toyed with the idea of running a campaign where the players are an Inquisitor's group until they find the bad guys, then of course they call in the Deathwatch, also played by the PC's.

This would allow mixing up a more cerebral game / play style with a straight forward OHH-RAH! shoot-um-up. Game won't get stale etc.

Darq said:

Also, imagine running a game of Rogue Trader parallel to the other one. Egads... nothing like having the players threaten themselves.

Darq said:

This remains one of the most common suggestions for running a mixed group, yay unto the days when people were questioning why you would want to bother playing a Marine in the first place.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

We did something like that back in college with Champions (erm Hero System). Everyone designed a investigator and a combat monster and did just as you said. It was the GMs version of Law and Order, but instead of investigating and prosecuting, it was investigating and executing.

...we prefer the phrase "Granting the Emperor's peace"...