Space Marine Scouts have been a vital part of the forces of the Astartes since the days of Rogue Trader , yet the Scouts and Chaplains were not included as classes in the Deatchwatch RPG. Now, mind you, with the right choice of talents, skills, and equipment you can make a passable Scout using the Deathwatch Tactical Marine speciality... but this seems like the kitbash that it is. Why not have it as a full, proper class?

Usually among Chapters that adhere closely to the dictates of the Codex Astartes all the scout squads of a Space Marines chapter are just "Space Marines in Training," organized in the 10th Company. They are learning the ropes and still having the last of their superhuman organs installed before being promoted to full Space Marine status and deployment in one of the Space Marine Squads. (Until the most recent Codex they were promoted to Tactical Squads and then into one of the specialit squads: Assault or Devastator; Now, thet do it backwards.) Obviously, it would not be appropriate for the Deathwatch to draft these raw initiates... That's okay though!

The "trainees" in Codex Astartes adherent Scout Squads are always led by a Veteran Sergeant - a full marine with many years, decades, or centuries of combat under his power armored belt, who has been assigned to the 10th Company to train the newbies. This sort of character can be modelled rather well using the Deathwatch Tactical Marine class. But I still think we could use a more Scout-y Scout. Especially when you consider some of the non-Codex Astartes adherent Chapters' mant variations on Scouts: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, etcetera...

Michigan said:

Wow I just finished my scout/sniper specialty, take a look. I got alot of mixed reviews on my sniper rifle, but I will go with experiance and what I think is accurate for a space age sniper so use it or not either way doesnt effect me. There are some things that I am unsure of thier placement for advancement I tried to use the other Specialties as a basis of comparison.

Scout/Sniper

Reading the book one thing that stuck out was the lack of scouts/sniper type.
After doing some research, it seems most chapters scouts are "Newbies" in the 10th company. However, just because Deathwatch is not a bunch of noobs does not mean they have no use for recon/snipers. They have a sniper rifle in the book that is so Sub-Par I am completly scraping it.

This is one that is roughly based on the Exitus Rifle the Vindicare Temple Assassins use.

Class Basic range 1200m/w scope*(max range with out penalty, up to twice range at a -10, 3 times at -30. can not fire beyond 3x) DAM 3d10+5 impact quality Special traits-
Reliable, Accurate, Felling 1. PEN 8. ROF S/-/- Clp 6

Starting Equipment Scout/Sniper-

All standard Astartes Starting Gear with exception of Power Armour
The Sniper Rifle Listed above with 3 clps basic rounds
Masking Screen
Astartes Scout Armour

Special Abilities-

One Shot One Kill- When using a scoped weapon BS is +10, on a successful called shot to the head opponent in addition to taking critical damage, must roll a very hard -30 toughness test or is dead.

Infiltration- Only usable in squad mode, scout/sniper can reroll any failed silent move/disguise/decieve test as a free action and opponents recieve a -10 to all detection abilities including psyker.

Scout/Sniper Marine Characteristic Advances
Simple Intermediate Trained Expert
Weapon Skill-500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Ballistic Skill- 200 500 1,000 1,500
Strength- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Toughness- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Agility- 200 500 1,000 1,500
Intelligence- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Perception- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Willpower- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Fellowship- 500 1,000 1,500 2,000

Scout/Sniper Advances Rank 1
cost Type Prerequisites
Catfall 200 Talent Ag 30
Deadeye Shot 500 Talent BS 30
Astartes Weapon Specialisation(Bolt (Rifles) 500 Talent
Marksmen 500 Talent BS 35
Rapid Reload 400 Talent

Rank 2
Crack Shot 500 Talent BS 40
Shadowing 500 Skill
Demolition 600 Skill
Security 400 Skill
Silent Move +10 400 Skill

Rank 3
Ciphers (Xeno Markings) 400 Skill
Tech Use 600 Skill
Acrobatics 400 Skill
Interrogation 200 Skill
Hardy 500 Talent
SharpShooter 600 Talent BS 40 Deadeye Shot

Rank 4
Target Selection 800 Talent BS 50
Sound Constitution 1,000 Talent
Security +10 400 Skill
Silent Move +10 500 Skill
Concealment +10 500 Skill

Rank 5
Acrobatics +10 400 Skill
Shadowing +10 500 Skill
Eye of Vengeance 1,000 Talent

Rank 6
Tech Use +10 600 Skill
Silent Move +20 500 Skill
Concealment +20 500 Skill

Rank 7
Acrobatics +20 400 Skill
Assassin Strike 500 AG40, acrobatics
Hard Target 800 BS 40

Rank 8
Foresight Talent Int 40
Lightning Reflexes 1,000
Shadowing +20 500 Skill
Security +20 400 Skill

Do with this what you will.

Ehr,

I can't find mighty shot on the list anywhere, that and the one shot kill is way to powerful, did you take in account creatures like daemons and so on?

Expert Marksman:
Called shot is a Half Action instead of a Full Action and Aiming with a scoped weapon confers a +20 to hit on a half action and +30 on a full action aim

As Santiago said and the Infiltration ability should not be able to mask them from warp based detection.

Also, the rifle is obscene, even by Deathwatch standards. IMO that no group in the Imperium should have access to anything that exceeds the Exitus Rifles the Vindicare use. The Exitus are hand made and tailored to each individual. Any weapon the Astartes are going to use are still mass produced, regardless of the quality, and shouldn't be able to exceed what is supposed to be the most feared sniper weapon in the Imperium. Besides that, having a custom range descriptor that only pertains to one weapon and has nothing in common with the game system is silly.

Your base range on your uber rifle should read 900 if you really think that it should outpreform every other weapon in the game. 900 puts short range at 450, medium out to 1800, long up to 2700, and extreme at 3600.

A more reasonable ,yet still wildly overpowered, interpretation of your Astartes Uber Sniper Rifle

Class: Basic SP Range: 900 Damage: 3d10+5 I Clip: 1 Pen: 3 RoF: S/-/- Traits: Reliable, Accurate, Marksman Weapon*

*Marksman Weapon - Weapons with this trait are made for the hands of experts, and only reach their full potential in their hands. To activate this ability the wielder must have a BS of 55 or greater. When used in conjunction with the aim half action the PEN of the weapon is doubled to 6 and includes the normal +10 for a half action Aim. A full action Aim triples the PEN to 9 and includes the normal +20 for the Full Aim Action. The Aim can then be held for an addition half action, into a second round, granting the Felling (1) trait but no further bonus to hit.

Personally I wouldn't put the range over 300 and the damage at 2d10+5. Requisition and Renown should be in the mid range of the scale.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think Astartes should snipe with a boltgun variant. I'd say either use the Stalker pattern or make up your own. Requisition/renown is no problem as it can be made part of the standard equipment of a Scout.

And I am not sure that Marksman Weapon is a good idea given the existence of the Eye of Vengeance talent. If you want to overcome armour, pick this talent and learn where the enemy's weak points are.

My 2 cents.

Alex

ak-73 said:

You could easily switch the weapon to a Bolt variant, just swap the damage to X from I. Nimon had it listed as Impact damage so I went SP.

I didn't think about the Eye of Vengeance Talent. I was just trying to tone down what Nimon had listed as part of his weapons basic stats. The idea of Marksman Weapon was to take what was in his original rifle and put a minor bit of restriction on it.

Except for the fact that for some three decades of existance, Space Marine Scouts have done all their sniping with Needle Sniper Rifles and not boltguns. Hard to be stealthy or precise with a friggin hand-head rocket-propelled grenade launcher. *Ahem* At any rate, when did this become a thread about snipers? Space Marine Scouts are more than just sharpshooters.

Michigan said:

When Nimon hijacked it.

I think a single alternate rank 1 could handle a Scout Specialist. Really there are a few skills that should be available early to a scout specialist but over all the Tac class should cover the bulk of the career.

Michigan said:

Yes but we're talking about Deathwatch Scouts here, right? I would assume that as soon as they meet the requirements a Stalker-pattern Boltgun will be generally considered the tool of choice for a Scout specialty. And that bolter is both stealthy and precise.

Alex

Ya I knew that would get alot of flak. Here are my points can aggree or disagree I will not post again.

First thing you are right they are not just snipers, I tried to give them things like security and to reflect that truly I think there are alot of skills that they should have like survival and a bonus to navigation surface, but I figured the player could chose those from deathwatch, codex or chapter advances if avalible.

Second thing-One Shot One Kill is what snipers do, they kill HVTs(high value targets). Funny how no one objects to the Devestator taking out a quater of an army in the first round, but give sniper the ability to kill one guy and suddenly he is over powered.

Thirdly my gun is based more off of a Rail Gun, which is what I see someone with 4x human strength going after huge bug monsters and daemons using. You want to give em the needler go ahead use it as you want.

Nimon said:

The skills are there, but I wouldn't rely too much on the outside sources. Assault Marines, Librarians, and the rest don't need to lean on codex or chapter training to fill their role.

Nimon said:

The issue I have with your write-up is that all your special abilities are sniper related; I think more emphasis should be put on fieldcraft, tracking, and reconnaissance.

Nimon said:

Once again, I'm forced to point out that Space Marine Scouts use needlers, shotguns, boltguns and bolt pistols; Heavy bolters and missile launchers. There aren't any rail guns in the Imperium's armories (short of some oddities - that might not be canon any more - among the Squat Clans and Titan Legions).

I'm sure the Deathwatch has a range of xeno sniper rifles in stock. However, while it is realistic that sniper rifles should be able to one-shot a human being, the same cannot be said for all xeno races. Short of a Lascannon you will not one shot a Hive Tyrant, sorry. And even then you'll need to use the stupid RF rules or have great amounts of luck.

An Ork Warboss? Okay, perhaps. A sniper rifle may be able to do that. A Tau Commander in a Crisis Suit? No. These are not humans (Wounds 90?) and besides their Tech protects them from being one-shoted. Use a Lascannon.

Alex

Oh, just up the damage of the Astartes Sniper to 1d10+2 and up the Toxic to 2d10 instead of 1d10....deadly enough...don't forget it is Accurate...

Michigan said:

Nimon said:

1. "Once again, I'm forced to point out that Space Marine Scouts use needlers, shotguns, boltguns and bolt pistols; Heavy bolters and missile launchers."

2. See Deathwatch Core Rulebook.

Alex

ak-73 said:

What page? The whole point of this thread was that their is not a good "recon" type specialty. Initially space marine scouts are the new guys in the 10th company, what represents a seasoned scout type?

Nimon said:

Pages 145, 150, 153.

Nimon said:

There is so far no seasoned scout type nor seasoned sniper type. All Space Marines who progress beyond the 10th company are seasoned. Furthermore the specialties in Deathwatch largely reflect personal inclination (as far as assault, dev und tactical marines go).

If the personal inclination of a DW marine was doing recon, staying unseen, sniping, etc. you could make a up a specialty for that bearing in mind that those marines still will be seasoned Space Marines just as the other specialties. And you best keep in mind that just as an Assault Marine is an expert shooter and a Dev is an expert close combat fighter, all marines of the kill-team will be very experienced in doing recon, staying unseen, sniping, etc.

As such there is also no necessity to stick to the weapons that the tabletop scouts use. The DW characters will have access to different gear and they all will have greater experience than a Scout.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Those are the page numbers for the armoury yes, I was asking you for the page that says what a scout is and uses. You just said so yourself there is no necessity to stick to the weapons that the tabletop uses so why keep bringing up the needler, shotgun, bolter and missle launcher?

Nimon said:

Like I said Michigan, show us your version if you do not like mine.

I like your take on the scouts Nimon. The characteristics and the skills/talents looks really nice and well thought out.

I'm not too sure about the two specialty talents though. Even though they're good, I can see issues with them. Compare the "One shot, one kill" talent with "Bolter mastery". Both get +10 BS, but +2 damage vs T-30 or die? A bit too nasty at rank 1. I'll wrap my mind around it and see what I can come up with.

And as stated elsewhere I think your take on the sniper rifle is a bit over the top for my taste. Personaly I want the Vindicare assassins to be the unrivaled snipers and astartes scouts with that rifle with kick the assassins off their pedestal.
But that's my two cents.

Nimon said:

To me, fluff-wise, the Marines don't really have specialist snipers from my understanding. They have infiltrators and teach all of their members the more covert aspects of war, so while I like the idea of the Scout Sergeant, the exclusive sniper role seems off to me. Assassin strikes also seem off to me, as that seems the realm of the Temple and why they have temple assassins, and don't just give the job to the astartes all the time.

Nimon said:

It's been said, but this feels over the top- not because it can 'one shot' an enemy but because for some reason it just 'feels off' in the world and system as it's been set up. I know it was based on the Exitus, but the Exitus is supposed to be the crem de la creme of Imperial weaponcraft. The base stats of the exitus combined with it's ammo make it a hell of a weapon. The one above still beats it in every aspect- it has 6 times the range, it does +1d10 damage (giving it a higher RF chance), has near the same penetration, is reliable so it basically never jams, it's accurate giving it essentially +2d10 on aimed shots, and it removes a level of unnatural toughness. You also have to think about all of the 'sniper' type talents that would mean no range penalty or penalty to called shots, and a ton of damage bonuses and armor pen bonuses. I'd honestly just stick with the two weapons they have- the low pen but toxic sniper rifle and the stalker bolt rifle which is actually a very good sniper rifle.

Nimon said:

How much does that cost, 'cause that's a hell of an ability, especially combined with your felling weapon. That means an enemy with a Toughness of 100 and 100 wounds and unnatural toughness x2 still has a 30% chance of dying outright (okay, I guess they'd probably have a fate point to reroll at that point)- does the enemy even have to take damage? (as an aside, what do you mean by 'in addition to critical damage'? where does it say called shots do critical damage?)

I'd personally just build the talent tree so that they get all of the sniperesque abilities like Eye of Vengance if that's what you're going for. I mean seriously, you stack a master Deathwatch guy with all of your shots and a stalker boltgun you're doing 2d10+5 +2 for crack shot (+4 crit), +2 for Mighty Shot, ignoring 1pt armor per DoS on the attack and auto-confirming RF (eye of vengance), + up to 2d10 for aiming. That's likely a total of 4d10+9 with auto-confirmed RF with reduced armor and penetration 5.

Nimon said:

I like this talent, but I'd nix the psyker detection abilities. I'd also consider swapping it out for the dissapear ability that Vindicare get, where they can make concealment tests as a half action even while being observed.

As for other talents, from what I know of Scout Sergeants (which is, admittedly, not all that much), they seem to be leaders and teachers of the scouts, they're not just sniper/assassins. I'd personally move away from the uber sniper and look at skills that would make them good teachers and good at being away from friendly lines, such as Climb, Command, Evaluate, Scrutiny, Demolitions, Lip Reading, Navigation, Survival, Tactics.

For talents I'd consider things such as Sprint, Target Selection, Paranoia, Marksman, Eye of Vengance, Hard Target, Crack Shot, Crippling Strike, Air of Authority.

I guess I think of a scouts (and scout sergeants) as more observers than assassins.

And as for 'where does it say they fight with needle sniper rifles' you can check the codexes or you can check the lexicanum- they all fight with the weapons that have been previously mentioned. While you're in the DW and aren't limited to the table top or previous fluff, to create a sniper rifle so insanely powerful combined with ridonkulous talents, it's just a little much for my taste (mind you sometimes I feel the same way about devestators and that goddamn heavy bolter).

I know this is a "House Rules" forum, and so commend the OP for trying to create something to represent the Scout role, but for me, I would just play a Tac-Marine/Ass-Marine and lean my skill set into that which was required. That being said, I like the idea of Infiltration as a squad ability, and also agree that making them less of a sniper and more of a proper scout should be the order of the day.

They should be getting their kills by laying traps and stalking people like Rambo, not hiding 1,000 yards away and doing 1 shot-1kill rubbish. That to me is Rollplay, not Roleplay!! I would never let one of my players be a Sniper-Marine, leave it to the Assassins

I'm afraid i have to side with those saying that the OP's proposed scout class is really overpowered. Imperials don't use rail-tech, scouts don't end up in the Deathwatch (Dawn of War is so totally canon-breaking it's not funny), Astartes don't need snipers and in fact avoid long ranged warfare, where their imposing physiques, brutal close range weaponry and blitzkreig deployment methods can't be brought to bear.

The needle sniper rifle in the book, used by an astartes with with a good ballistic skill (we're talking 45+ here), who knows how to utilise terrain to his advantage and wait for his shots, can be pretty brutal. Hell, my Storm Warden Assault marine has a needle rifle with him currently and he's facing Tau... nuff said.