Hmm...

The rifle is disgustingly OP, I'm afraid. Stack it with the other abilities, and it's even grimmer. This is better than most relics. And it's starting kit. What's with that insane range? Sure: It makes sense in the real world, but not in the context of the game. We're talking about a game-world where gyrojet rifles only having a 100m effective range and support weapons only half that again!

The stat-ups: 2 cheap, no expensive. In-line with tactical and Apothecary, but basically a bit too good. why not use the 'some cheap, some average, some expensive' formula of most classes?

Talents/skills: There's a lot of them at each level, and they essentially build into an uber-sniper. Snipers are not Scouts. I also note the complete lack of scout skills available for early purchase, like tracking or awareness or similar. Lots of infiltrations skills but no actual scout skills... It kind of makes the ethos behind the class quite transparent: To build an uber-sniper. Tactics: Recon and Stealth is obviously not something that Scouts bother learning, because they're too busy murdering people from a million miles away with a rifle that makes Assassins hastily update their Xmas day lists.

The class skills are a bit OTT too. They basically make the class murderously good. If Scouts go on to become Marines, then why don't all marines have a 'save or die' kill-shot ability?

I'm not keen on Scouts in DW. Maybe a Scout Company sergeant, who is a veteran marine, but not just a humble scout, who isn't even a 'proper' marine yet. But that aside, this is a drastically OP take on the concept. If a homebrew class is drastically better than even the weakest of the published ones, there's a bit of a problem.

As regards there being a gap for a good Scout: That's part-true, but under-sells the Space Wolves as regard pointman duties. SWs are great for the role.

There's been a lot of talk about how the Space Wolves are a poor Chapter choice. How about GMs simply houserule a few more basic 'outdoorsy' skills and talents onto their list, and the search for a suitable 'scout' is then over?

tl;dr: If you want to play an actual scout, then go Spacewolf. If you want to play an uber-sniper, buy your GM pizza and chocolate and ask to play a Vindicare Assassin.

Kasatka said:

Why would Scouts not end up in the Deathwatch? Yes, 10th company recruits wouldn't go to the Deathwatch- I don't think anyone is suggesting that a fresh from implantation scout be inducted into the DW- but a Scout Sergeant could absolutely be seconded to the DW. Scout Sergeant's are carefully selected and usually renowned members of the chapter as they're responsible for training and indoctrinating the new chapter members.

As for Dawn of War, it may break previously existing canon (and it did), but so does a lot of stuff that is written for the line. It's retconning and creating new canon, the stuff in the game still has to be approved by GW before it can be released, just like the novels, TT additions, and RPGs. And the scout they portray in DoW 2 is a scout sergeant, which means he's a sergeant that's been around for a very long time, and given my above argument I'd suggest it's totally within the realm of possibility that a scout sergeant would be seconded.

I'd also disagree that Astartes avoid ranged warfare; I think that depends on the chapter. Many of the chapters in the DW book definitely favor close combat, and as a whole Marines are known for flexibility and fast attack. Perhaps they avoid the same long ranges as the guard, who rely on artillery and the like, but you wouldn't see marines with whirlwinds or lascannons if they really avoided it as much as I think you're implying.

Though yeah, I don't know of any imperial weapon that utilized railguns, but I will say the needle rifle is a very objective specific weapon and doesn't make a good all-around sniper rifle for a marine squad. For that I'd go with the stalker. As a specialty, assasin strike weapon, it's pretty good.

@Siranui: Definitely house rules for SW skills. I didn't wholley alter them like some o fthe threads, but I did modify that damned caraouse skill and let them take the fieldcraft skills for slightly reduced cost (seeing that things like survival are general SM skills)

Charmander said:

I don't understand any of this tbh. In my reading of the rulebook the Tacs, Assaults, Devs are a matter of personal preference or incination. It doesn't matter all that much which position a PC held last in his chapter. Specialty here is a matter of what he likes and what he's good at.

So if you want to play a Scout-type Elite Advances may be in order. But in my reading any Specialty can work as scout. Devastators (who aren't heavy weapons but ranged combat specialists in DW terms) can be snipers, Assaults can try to lay close combat ambushes, Tacs can work as a mixture of both. Even other specialties can be geared to it.

Let's be clear on this: when a marine gets assigned to the DW he must have mastered the full spectrum, that's a precondition or else he isn't fit for the DW. Which means some who has been a Scout in his home chapter must have mastered close combat fighting, heavy weapons, etc.

So it doesn't matter which company a marine has been coming from nor what his last battlefield role has been. What matters is what the Marine wants to contribute to the kill-team - his new family.

Alex

ak-73 said:

What I'm saying, or trying to, is that a neophyte isn't going to be inducted into the Deathwatch, and much of the 10th company could be considered the new guys. A skilled marine that returns to the scouts may be seconded, but the vast majority of scouts won't be as they haven't mastered the full spectrum of the marines (never say never though).

But yes, if I were to play a scout/scout sergeant, I'd simply take the flavor of the specialty and concentrate on 'scout like' skills, and take armor, weapons, and other wargear to reflect my choices.

Scout Sergeat Telion uses a stalker pattern boltgun, why do we need better than that?

Deathwatch page 309: Recruitment

• " Most Battle-Brothers are veterans of a hundred alien wars before being inducted into the Deathwatch, but selection is not made upon length of service alone. In theory, even a Scout who shows exceptional skill at arms against the xenos may be selected to serve, although such an event is extremely rare. "

It is ultimately the choice of the Watch Commander as to who will be accepted, but it falls to the Chaplains , Apothecaries and Chapter Masters to screen those who may be of service and forward the names of those deemed worthy to the Deathwatch .

-=Brother Praetus=-

Space marines do not have veteran scout units or snipers. The closest you will get are the sergeants that TRAIN the scouts in the 10th company. They are full space marines but have specialised in infilitration tactics etc.

Ultramarine's scout sergeant Telion is one example. He uses a stalker silenced bolter. The only example of veteran scouts comes from the space wolf chapter where their scout units are actually old veterans rather than new recruits. This is the only given example of veteran scout units amongst marine chapters. All the rest are the new unfinished recruits.

However, you could go with representing a chapter scout sergeant/wolf scout with their own advancement table. There would be far fewer of these in the DW as you only get around 10 per chapter (1 per scout unit). The wolf scouts would be more common though. So, sticking to the background you can have a veteran scout if you preface it with the description that it is a wolf scout of the space wolf chapter or a scout sergeant from another chapter. Anything else wouldn't fit.

Scout sergeant Telion represents how most scout sergeants work. As scouts are only equippable with bolters, pistols, shotguns or sniper rifles, it would make sense for a scout sergeant to be trained in stalker silenced bolter sniping as well as needle rifle sniping. Which one they use would be an entirely personal decision. However as the stalker is ridiculously awesome compared to a sniper rifle, it would be the most popular.

Hellebore

*coughMantisWarriorTranquilitySniperSquads*

...But that's the only exception that I can think of.

You could easily make any Space Wolf a Scout by means of skill selection. There's no need to reinvent a wheel, I feel.

Is that in the latest Badab War Imperial Armour book? I've never heard of a 'tranquility' sniper squad...

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

The exception to that would be the Scouts of the Space Wolves. They are Veterans rather than initiates like the rest of the Astartes. Space Wolf Scouts have fought long and hard for their Wolf Lords and progressed through the ranks of the Grey Hunters. They ave decades upon decades of service and experience and when promoted from the ranks of Grey Hunters, they choose to be Long Fangs (Devastators) or are chosen to exercise their guile as Scouts within their Great Company.

Much of this discussion and debate have been addressed (weapon-wise) with the "Ultra" introduced in RoB. Comes with Suppressor and Optics and is tailored to the shooter. The weapon is not overpowered and though has the same range as the Needle Rifle, 250m, it still only outranges the Stalker Pattern Boltgun by 50m and doesn't have the ability to use Specialized Ammo like the Stalker. Mission circumstances I guess would determine the best option.

Korvis said:

ACTUALLY SPACE WOLVES ALWAYS ADVANCE THRU ACHIEVEMENTS....NOT STRICTURES OF RANK OR AGE(WITH THE NOTED EXCEPTION OF LONG FANGS[DEVASTATORS])......YOU CAN ALWAYS REFER TO THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF LORD RAGNAR BLACK MANE HE WHO NEVER GOT TO BE A GREY HUNTER(TACTICAL MARINE), BUT NEVER THE LESS BECAME A WOLF LORD THAT CAME STRAIGHT FROM THE BLOOD CLAWS(ASSAULT MARINES).....

LORD SHARICK said:

Ragnar was an exceptionalcase as the Path of his Destiny was forseen by Ranek the eldest of the Wolf Priests. His Path took him from BloddClaw (Initiate) through a very unusual course of events leading to the loss of one of the Chapters most sacred Relics, the Spear of Russ. Cast by his hand it earned him singular shame and dishonor for which he was sent to serve the House Belasarius as a member of the WolfBlade. A Space Wolf contingent on Holy Terra where disgraced Space Wolves go to serve until the redeem themselves or die in service. Through more unusual circumstances he found and made contact with the 13th Company lost within the Warp and after gaining the respect of Torvald through his deeds, he assited Ragnar in returning to the space and time he belonged to. The events unfolded to their climax with the recovery of the Relic Spear by the hand that lost it. As this was a mighty deed and it regained Ragnars honor as a Spce Wolf in the eyes of his Wolf Lord as well as the Great Wolf himself, he was bestowed upon with mantle of Wolf Lord in the manner in which every Wolf Lord is........The vote of The Wolf Guard of the Great Company when it's Wolf Lord falls or succumbs to the Red Dreams. It was no easy Path for the BloodClaw and he retains many of the traits inherant to them as depicted by his Codex profile.

Yes Ragnar Blackmane is a Wolf Lord and his Destiny led him to promotion in "other than" the usual methods, but he is a Special Character and thus wouldn't have done anything in a typical manner anyway.