A quick random question.

I tried to search for the answer on here, but have not had any luck. Probably in the old forums or something.

I remember reading a rule that stated that familiars are not affected by obstacles. More to the point, a familiar can move through a pit without consequence or being slowed down.

Can someone point me to that rule if anyone knows where it is?

Or, just answer the question: If Boggs the Rat is in a pit, does he still have LOS to spaces beyond those adjacent to the ones of the pit?

Thanks!

Jonny WS said:

I thought no, but then I checked.

DJitD pg17
While in a pit, a figure has no line of sight to any other spaces. Other figures may trace line of sight to a figure in a pit normally.

Note that familiars are not figures . Nothing I can find in the familiars rules says that they will be affected by pits for LOS despite not being figures.
DJitD pg14
The overlord player cannot spawn monsters within line of sight of Boggs, just as if he were a hero
means that Boggs, LOS affects monsters the same way a hero's would, not that Boggs' LOS is affected the same way a hero's is.

I guess Boggs, being a Rat, is able to move around/balance on the edges of a pit and his LOS is not affected.

I'd argue that familiars still need to pay extra movement to leave a pit (unless they have the Fly ability) - they move like heroes - but they don't suffer wounds for entering a pit. That's the conclusion I recall being reached in several previous discussions, as well.

There's certainly no general rule that familiars are unaffected by obstacles - that would completely defeat the point of giving them Fly , since they can already move through enemy figures.

I believe Corbon is correct about Boggs' line-of-sight not being restricted by RAW, though.

Antistone said:

Agreed.

To be thorough about this, we should also examine Bogg's special rules, in addition to the FAQ ruling in question and the rules for familiars in general. Especially since Bogg's special rules pertain to LoS:

" Boggs the Rat
This familiar is granted by a Wizardry skill card. Boggs’s
speed is 4. The overlord player cannot spawn monsters
within line of sight of Boggs, just as if he were a hero."

I agree that Boggs is not a figure, but I think there's some wiggle room for interpretation regarding his special rules. In particular, the second sentence quoted above could be read as:

(a) "Boggs generates LoS like a hero (ie: a figure) and thus the OL cannot spawn within his field of vision"

or (b) "Boggs generates LoS (not like a figure, but in his own weird tokeny way) and the OL is prevented from spawning within that LoS field as if a hero were generating the LoS."

I can certainly see an argument for (b) which would support the previous discussion in this thread, the problem I foresee is that if we say Boggs' LoS is not affected by pits, then we have to question how it is affected by anything else. Saying he simply ignores all props is one answer, but that also implies he can't see through a staircase at all, even when he's standing on it (for example.) It also begs the question of how or even if a rubble token would block his LoS. I'm sure we can come up for answers for all such questions in time, I'm just saying that defining Boggs' LoS to work differently than a hero's LoS opens the door for a variety of other LoS-related questions concerning Boggs. Rather a lot of work considering this is the only non-figure with LoS in the entire game.

If we choose to read this rule as (a), then Boggs' LoS should always behave like a hero's LoS, including (to my mind) FAQ rulings and errata that affect the LoS of figures, even though Boggs himself is not a figure. He generates LoS like a hero and a hero is a figure. This has the upside that Boggs' LoS continues to function in all respects like a hero's would, and therefore we don't need to question how his unique LoS field is affected by just about everything in the game.

Personally I have very little emotional stake in the final decision people come to about this, but I personally prefer to go with (a) since it keeps things simple. The fewer "unique" situations there are, the fewer rules debates that might surface in the future.

According to the rules:

• Familiars move like heroes , except that they can move
through enemy figures and can end their movement in
the same space as another figure.
• A familiar cannot carry any items or perform any
movement actions unless its description states otherwise .
• Familiars cannot be affected by any attack or harmed
in any way.

So, technically, Boggs must move like heroes, but it cannot jump over a pit, so it could not leave a pit because it is a movement action, too. If an OL plays two adjacent pits in a corridor, how could it pass?

gran_orco said:

It was ruled a long time ago in a previous forum that familiars can move out of pits. But, an interesting concept I didn't consider beforehand, Why would a familiar have fly? I suppose that the non-flying familiars still need to spend some of their movement to get out of pits or mud or whatever. But they just have a number of spaces they can move each turn, not a "speed" as other figures have.

Perhaps they have fly so they can move past rubble and water obstacles? I am not sure. I never gave it much thought until now.

Does anyone have any record of a ruling when the game first came out regarding this situation?

Jumping a pit is a movement action. Climbing out of a pit square is not; it's a normal movement that costs more. Similarly, entering a mud square isn't a movement action, it's just a cost increase on a normal movement.

Everything in the game "has a number of spaces it can move." Advancing allows a hero to "move up to a number of spaces equal to his speed". That's the language they use in Descent to hand out movement points. No, it's not as clear as it could be, it's Descent.

I think all the things you asked about are already pretty clear. Familiars have movement points equal to their speed, just like an Advancing hero, or Tahlia using her ability. Familiars can't jump pits, but they don't have any reason to do so; they take no damage when they enter, and stepping in and then back out costs, at most, the same movement as jumping. Familiars pay extra movement for mud and cannot enter rubble or water, unless they have Fly , because they move like heroes, and therefore suffer the same penalties and restrictions on their movement.

Though there are perhaps some borderline cases like Ice or Grapple where you could plausibly have an argument over whether it's a "movement" effect, and therefore whether or not the "move like heroes" clause subjects familiars to it. That might be a reasonable subject for a question.

It certainly would have been better if they had originally defined a technical term like "creature" that explicitly included familiars as well as heroes and monsters, and then used it in the rules that ought to apply to familiars, but what else is new?

Antistone said:

What a ... How could not I think THAT? It is quite obvious!! Three years spent thinking how the hell could I surpass that dilemma

I was obfuscated thinking that going out of a pit was a movement action!! Thank you, my saviour!