Ok knowing something about sniper rifles I got to say the Space Marines sniper rifles are sub-par. 200m range? really? In the Civil war confederates where killing union soldiers at 800m with whitworth rifles. My m4 can shoot 500m. And no armor pen?! HA, google sniper rifles and take a look at some 50 cal rounds. So lets fix this shall we.

Astartes Sniper Rifle Class: Basic Range 1200m w/scope ROF: S (sure there are some nice semi auto sniper rifles out there in present day for example the dragunovs, but I can see limiting it to Single fire and allowing rapid reloaders to maybe increase it to 2 rounds) DMG: 3d10 + 5 I (what it does more damage then the pistol? if someone asks that I am just going to laugh) Pen: 8 Rld: 1 full Special: Accurate, Felling (1), Reliable. Wt 5 Req 20.

There add that to your games and you might have people actually want the sniper rifle. That needle weapon in the book sounds like something an Eldar would use or something.

Nimon said:

You do realize that range is an increment stat right? Not a end all stat. Short Range for the Astartes Sniper Rifle is 200m.

Nimon said:

A couple of things: first, 200m is the medium range which means it can fire up to 800m (read the range rules). So if you want to fire up to 1200m, you should assign a base range of 300m. Secondly, please re-read the description of the Astartes Sniper Rifle; it's a needle rifle. Thirdly if they want a real Sniper Rifle, Astartes use the Stalker pattern Boltgun. :-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

Ya I read it guess you didn't read the part about how that is silly firing a needle and not penetrating armour. Stalker Pattern eh? to bad need respected renown for that so guess you wouldn't be starting with it. Pg 248 long range is only spot I saw anything more about range. It says more then double weapon range is considered long range -10. So If I wanted 1200m I should make it 600? How about I use common sense and say it can fire up to 1200m with no penalty to clear it up for everyone.

I don't think you guys are looking at this issue from a players prospective, either I can get this little needle rifle that shoots a single shot and no armor pen with a chance to poison(yay!) or I can get for the same renown a heavy bolter with and ROF of 10, close to the same range(50m less) and twice the damage and 5 Pen. I really want to meet the guy that takes the needler, you are not chilling with me in the bunker.

Again a couple of points: Extreme Range is up to base rangex4.

Secondly, it's not even a needler; it's a laser.

Thirdly a machinegun and a sniper rifle fulfill different battle roles.

Fourth point: put a Telescopic Sight on a rifle and you can fire without range penalty when you aim.

Lastly, please remember the Accuracy rules for Basic weapons. Normally you will do 3D10, Felling, Toxic with this thing. Which should be good enough to take out most human beings (with some luck even orks) on first strike. Especially if you aim at unarmoured locations.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Wrong on Several Points let me give you page numbers.

Extreme Range is anything over 3x and it is at -30/ great So I am a sniper that cant hit my targets Pg 247 for that one.

Astartes Sniper Rifle- The NEEDLE RIFLE offers the perfect combination of range, stealth , and deadliness ect ect Pg 153 for that one.

Thirdly, ya they have differant battle roles, but lets give the sniper something to fulfill that role. BTW talking to a combat veteran have some Idea of what I am talking about after 15 months on the border of Iran.

Fourth ya I already added a scope notice how it was 1200m w/scope and it didnt cost an extra 6 req. Like I am going to use a sniper rifle with no scope.

Lastly, A sniper rifle needs Pen, sometimes you are shooting through glass/doors ect. Once again combat veteran 2/3 ACR cav scout.

Nimon said:

Extreme Range - read Range on page 141.

Needle Rifle - yes but read the description. It doesn't fire a physical flechette needle round.It fires some supposedly small toxic crystals What penetration these realistically would have is anyone's guess. If they shatter easily, they won't have much penetration or any. That's what I was alluding to.

Battle Roles - all I was saying was that the HB of course is able to dish out more damage.

Scope - all I was saying was that the sniper rifle should have the range penalties unless it has a functioning telescopic sight which it normally should have.

Pen - apparently the technology used doesn't offer Pen. Armoured Glass/Thin Metal has AP 4. The Weapon should be able to shoot through doors and Windows with its damage value by overcoming low APs.

If you want a regular sniper rifle, try to get a Nomad from Inquisitor's Handbook and ask your techmarine to modify it for you. Into the Storm also has a conventional sniper rifle iirc. They are no Astartes Weapon though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Ya I read pg 141 apparently you did not so I will type it out for you.

Range: This number determines how far the weapon can fire accurately in meters. The weapon's short range is half this number, while long range is double this number(for range bonuses and penalties see Chapter VIII: Combat, pg 247-249) Weapons Cannot be fired at targets more then 4x thier range distance. HMMM DONT SEE ANYTHING ABOUT EXTREME RANGE MUST BE ON 247-249 LIKE I MENTIONED

Astartes Sniper Rifle- The NEEDLE rifle offers the perfect combination of range, stealth, and deadliness. A low-power laser beam PROPELS (oh so the laser is shooting somthing other then a laser) small slivers(those would be the NEEDLES) of crystallised toxin that, once lodged in flesh, dissolve into the bloodsteam almost instantly. Many chemicals can be solidified into such rounds with the right equipment, and a variety are in use by the Deathwatch. The most common compound ( and the standard ammunition for this weapon) is a viral toxin taht leaves most enemies dead within moments of being wounded. As they have no muzzle flash, NEEDLE weapons are ideal for assassinations. The only arguement against these exquisite weapons is that the brittle rounds have little penetrating power(ya 0 I call that little even states this weakness in the book) making them next to USELESS against heavily armoured targets.

Ya HBs do dish out more damage in this game,but PER BULLET a sniper rifle should do ALOT MORE DAMAGE. 1 shot 1 kill, not 10 shots 5possible wounded.

I don't see 0 pen going through the window of a sentinel walker piloted by a corrupted guardsmen but hey you go ahead and try it.

If I want a normal Sniper rifle I think I will stick to what I made. Its based off the Exitus Rifle from Ascension.

Any other pg numbers you want me to type out for you

Nimon said:

Range: Okay, I don't want to argue with you any further on range. I will instead do two things:

- "Weapons Cannot be fired at targets more then 4x thier range distance."

- if you're interested in a more in-depth debate on the subject, look at:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Needler: and still it's not a classical needle rifle (nor does it shoot modern day flechette rounds) as known from various cyberpunk games. That's what I was pointing out and that's all that is necessary to explain why it may have a Pen of 0.

Damage/Pen: The Astartes Sniper Rifle is apparently not designed to snipe someone behind thick armoured glass. Nor can you expect these brittle slithers to do more damage than a HB round (although on a good shot they can do). If that isn't good enough for you, I advise Stalker rounds for now and later the Stalker pattern. Or a plasmagun or a lascannon. You'll lose the accuracy quality though.

Pages: Yes, I'd like you type out all the page numbers you know.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Um I don't even know what you are talking about with the 4x. Scroll up I never said something COULD be fired at 4x range. YOU SAID EXTREME RANGE IS 4x. I corrected you and said it is 3x and that you can fire at -30 per standard rules pg 247 so get off the crack.

Needler:Um this isnt cyber punk, your not going on hacker missions or casting nanites into the air. I didn't say it was a needler THE BOOK did so take it up with Ross I guess.

I know that weapon isnt designed to snipe someone behind glass! IT IS A SUB-PAR Sniper Weapon which is how I started this forum and you have attempted to argue with me about it and misquoted half the book doing so.

I know all the pages because I own and have read the book. Ask away.

Ha I checked the link all it did was take me to the forums, I don't think you ever check your sources

Imo the advantages of the Astartes sniper rifle are:

• The ammo is very, very light. Allowing the scout initiates to operate independently for very long periods. If I recall correctly scouts carry the device that generates the ammo.
• The operation is virtually silent and flashless
• Using called shots on unarmoured locations - one shot kills are likely

As far as DW is concerned, an Astartes sniper rifle (with scope) is a nice secondary weapon to have. Btw I would be inclined to rule that the snipe rifles always come with scopes - and this is included in the req cost.

Clearly it is not the equivalent to a modern sniper rifle. But how many 50-caliber rounds does a modern sniper carry? Is he dropped behind enemy lines and expected to operate independently for months?

If you want the 40K equivalent to a modern sniper rifle - perhaps a Lascannon...

Before this goes on too long, there is a misprint in the book. The range rules stated in the equipment section are incorrect. The range rules stated in the combat section are correct. This is as per the rogue trader and dark heresy errata. Both systems also have the same misprint between equipment section and combat section.

Therefore, the range increment of the sniper rifle is

point blank 0-2m
short 3-100m
medium 101-400m
long 401-600
extreme 601-800m

And yes, scopes (and some talents) remove the negative penalties. Also, yes, this gun is terrible. Best use is to have the apothecary further poison the round, and in using it stealthily, against an unarmoured target, such as an ethereal. It really shouldn't be used in combat (or rather, not in something where the enemy is fighting back).

Fresnel said:

But how many modern day snipers are space marines with unnatural strx2? Thats my point they should have exceptional weapons beyond what we have now. A modern day sniper behind enemy lines would use a .308 if western or 7.62 if eastern of corse thats in general if you were some black ops badass im sure you would have something more custom.

KommissarK said:

Thanks thats all I was really saying is that this weapon is incredibly sub-par for the task. Can you Imagine your up against a horde of Chaos and you got this little needler thing that might poison one of them a round? I am just trying to look at it as if I were the player, there is no way you could convince me to use that item or play that role. You want me to snipe the Deamon Prince? ok give me something that can take that bad boy down.

Its an accurate weapon. It can have an Atartes Targeter. That reduces range penalties to 0 and adds a bonus +10 to aim (+20 with the Targeter) for a total of +30/+40 aim (full round). If you are the sniper chances are you have the stats to back it up, i.e., Stealth, Concealment, high BS (50-60 or so), Marksman, Crack shot and so forth.

So it wouldnt be unfeasible to gain the full +60 modifier, have a to hit roll of 110-130 and be doing +2D10 damage on any roll of 70 (possibly as high as 90) or less. With an average of 6 successes you can replace the lowest die of damage with a 6.

Sniper rifles are not designed to take down walking walls of super muscle and armoured plate. They go for head shots, heart shots, kill shots. So if sniping against the Tau you are not firing at a crisis suit in the midst of combat while running toward it with your buddy beside you whirring a chain blade. No you are hidden in the trees, 800 meters away, waiting for the time when Commander Communist-Tau walks to the latrine in his towel and then you unleash a 3D10 damage shot to his TB 3 body and watch as he explodes.

Amen...add into that toxins and the like and you have a truely devistating weapon, when used in the correct circumstances.

sorry but...the scout miniature....wich rifle use?

the stalker bolter or the sniper rifle???

and the sniper rifle used by assasin???

Space Marine scouts have been modeled with both Long Las and Needle Rifle sniper weapons, as far as I can recall.

The stalker boltgun seems to be there to represent Srgt Telios and his wtfawesome ability to snipe people with rocket-propelled explosives.

Assuming by "Assassin" you mean the official sniper assassin training, you're talking about Vindicare Assassins and their highly potent Exitus Rifles. Unfortunately, Exitus Rifles are made solely by the Adeptus Mechanicus for the temple assassins, and only for the temple assassins, and are the sort of relicy, legendary weapons that would be at least on par with that Scapulan (sp?) Bolter in terms of availability and renown required, and is probably actually more rare. While it would be the sort of sniper rifle the OP was referring to, it wouldn't be available to the Astartes.

Still, the OP's suggested stats are, in my opinion, way out of line - they match or exceed even the Exitus Rifle, which is in-universe pretty much the KING of sniper rifles. 3d10 +5 dmg, 8 pen? That's higher than Plasma, and that doesn't even take into account the chance for extra d10s of damage from the Accurate quality.

Perhaps if the OP's weapon were considered a "Heavy" weapon, but the range, damage, and pen would still need to be toned down a bit.

@Gantz

Scouts: Astartes Sniper Rifle

Vindicare Assassin: Exitus Rifle

@Nimon

Keep in mind the Astartes Rifle is an exotic as well, so would require an exotic proficiency.

The Stalker is a far superior sniping weapon. With a good roll to hit, your damage roll is 5d10 keeping 4 of those die, Adding 5 and ignoring 5 armor.

With the sniper your damage roll is at most 3d10 keeping 3. The difference is, the sniper ignores 1 level of Unnatural toughness (so you're getting an extra 4-5ish points through) and if the target fails a toughness test you get an additonal d10 through, ignoring their toughness and armor.

In the end, they can do roughly equivalent damage, it's just harder to get it all through with the sniper rifle. Add to that the extra 500xp required for exotic weapon training for the sniper rifle and the fact that you don't have access to that talent until Rank 3 Deathwatch Advances and I don't see why anyone would ever use the rifle.

Especially once you take into account the versatility afforded by the various types of bolt ammo. With a fire selector you can maintain a mag of Stalker shells for silent shooting, Kraken for anti-armor like Chaos Marines and maybe some Hellfire rounds for the extra righteous fury chance.

I have a Space Wolf sniper I'm running currently and I love the Stalker. Started out with a Godwyn with Stalker rounds and graduated to the Stalker at respected.

Nimon said:

Okay, I'll explain to you: you said you wanted to have a sniper rifle that could fire targets up to 1200m away. I pointed out to you that this would require a base range of 300m, not 600m as you suggested. In the context of our conversation we were thus talking about the ceiling of range bands, not the floor. As such my statement that extreme range is x4 accurate. I hope you understand it now, thanks.

Nimon said:

Let me quote you from today "Ya I read it guess you didn't read the part about how that is silly firing a needle and not penetrating armour." If it was a caberpunk-style needle rifle you'd be justified in complaining about the lack of penetration. If it fired standard flechette ammon, then yes it should have significant penetration. What I was referring to instead was that the tech used given the description does not necessitate a high Pen or any Pen at all.

Nimon said:

I think you should reread what I have written. First of all I have nowhere written that I am fond of the Sniper Rifle. Personally I, in fact, think it is of limited use. Instead I have merely pointed out the RAW range rules to you. Secondly you seemed to have made the assumption that it needed a higher Pen and I pointed out the tech used doesn't strictly require that (as opposed to true flechette ammunition) and that the rifle can see some use under the right conditions.

Nimon said:

So you didn't take a look at the topic and didn't see that me and others have debated range before? And frankly given this remark of yours: "So If I wanted 1200m I should make it 600? How about I use common sense and say it can fire up to 1200m with no penalty to clear it up for everyone." it didn't seem as if you had properly understood the range rules.

Oh and "the sources" have been checked by people in that topic - in fact what KommissarK said in this topic is based on the exchanges in the topic provided. Anyway it seems you have a better grasp on ranges now so it's all good. :-)

Alex

PS "You want me to snipe the Deamon Prince? ok give me something that can take that bad boy down." Lascannon. Nothing less will probably do (and even then you need the RAW Righteous Fury rules). If you set your ambitions less high, work your way up to the Stalker-pattern Boltgun. I believe these (and similar patterns) are the principle sniper weapons of the Deathwatch.

Sniper rifle... change lascannon name to: "Las sniper rifle cannon" put targeter on top and u have your weapon of choice.

And please dont bring real world army experience to Deathwatch, u play as enhanced super soldier wearing smal tank as armour and who spit acid, who use spaceships that fly through hell to make shortcuts and who use sword to fight when he could just shoot at enemies with his mini rocket launcher. (again sarcasm filter ON gentelmans)

For the record, I'd have to say that Sniping a Daemon Prince isn't that out of the range for a Stalker Boltgun and increased Righteous Fury chances... Get 4 degrees of success (and with Aim and single shot, that shouldn't be hard), and you're rolling 5 dice, keeping 4. Hellfire Rounds give that a good 67% or so chance for Righteous Fury. Depending on the opponent and the bonuses involved, that is generally auto-hit-on-anything-but-96+ or automatic. Average 29ish, Pen 4 (negates natural armor). +19 from first Righteous Fury, +13 second Righteous Fury, +8 third Righteous Fury

Lascannon is a little heavier, but also probably a bit more capable of getting the job done. It only has a 47% or so chance for Righteous Fury, though it certainly hits heavier with its base damage. Average 43, Pen 10. +20 first Righteous Fury, +9 second Righteous Fury, +4 for third Righteous Fury

I should map this data out... though I'm guessing on the bonus from Tearing for 5d10 lowest.

Hey if you guys are happy with the Needler use it all you want, I haven't seen anyone pick it up. I gave good reasons not going to go back through them. AK-73 still so wrong it hurts to read but I am going to let it go.