Hopefully there is something I am missing but so far as we have been playing the DA devastator has been very overpowered. He simply brings his heavy bolter, his bolt pistol with hellfire ammo and a missile launcher with several krak rounds. No matter what I throw at him he mows it down and the rest of the party simply cannot keep up. His heavy bolter murders hordes and single tough enemies with ease and he kill bosses with no real trouble using his missiles. With his HB he only has to reload once every 25 rounds of combat. When I ambush them in melee with genestealers or something of the sort he still manages to kill at least as many enemies with his bolt pistol as the other marines since it is so effective in close combat. The rest of the party is a UM librarian, a Storm Wardens Assault marine, a BA tech marine, and a BA apothecary.

How are all of you dealing with devastator marines? Is there some piece of the rules I am missing?

scottruhnau said:

I'd suggest that, once he empties the ammo backpack, he is limited to the heavy bolters regular clip size.

Try reducing the requisition you give the group, though that may hinder the other players.

Are you using the RAW for righteous fury, or have you toned it down with a house rule ?

There are a lot of threads on this basic topic, take a peek around- most of them are about the heavy bolter seeming over powered. Some solutions to that particular issue include reducing the rate of fire to 6 or 7 (thought that is said to have other unintended consequences).

First I'd ask why you're letting your Devastator take two heavy weapons- it may be theoretically possible, but it seems that would be awkward as best. Where does he keep it- on the outside of his backpack? How does he reach it to pull it out?

Second, don't worry about body count so much. The devestator will always have the high body count as his whole purpose is to blast the hell out of hordes. Mix up the ojbectives and get clever with your encounters. Multiple hordes with elites, have an objective in their midsts, put a time limit on it (look at the encounter in Final Sanction where the PDF base is under attack. N siege guns that must be disabled in X turns, put platoons of rebels at their base, you have to do something other than just shoot at the enemy in order to make the time limit). Put your hordes in heavy cover (+20 to armor will really impact the force of the heavy bolter) to prompt the assault marine to do his bit. Give an objective to the tech marine- a gun emplacement that needs to be turned on in order to survive the hordes (you can always throw more at the PCs than they can take). Make the devestator play second fiddle as he blasts hordes apart while the apothecary tries to recover a progenoid from a fallen battle brother. Have a daemonic force show up to engage the librarian from a hidden location. Engage the party from multiple fronts.

You also don't have to make the game revolve around combat all the time- take a look at some of the other mission suggestions in the book. The HB and the missle launcher isn't that cool when stealth is the order of the day, or if you're trying to be diplomats.

My main argument is that a heavy bolter can only and only be fired in full-auto. That means the Marine has to decide every round if he'd like to move and cannot fire or he simply fires.

That said if you have a battlefield with a lot of cover or narrow spaces and a highly mobile enemy (like you said genestealer) it is very likely that the devestator will not have the right position every turn.

So let him move during his turn to engange the enemy and when its their turn they simply move on so when its the devastator's turn again he has again nobody to fire at.

Make him "fight" to get someone to fire at. The killing is easy for him so it should take him every effort to be able to kill.

Another point we used very early was the optinal rule that you have to divide all the hits between melee combatants. So when his comrads are enganged in melee he will likely hit his team members with every second shot.

Just my (literaly) two cents.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

Something to keep in mind: an opponent that's causing a lot of damage to your own forces tends to get priority. This means that if the devastator is indeed causing all sorts of havoc, the opposition will likely combine fire or otherwise work to take him out first. Use your best judgment on this, of course; a group of Fire Warriors may well fall back and call down an air strike or artillery strike on the offending devastator's position. Tyranids might send some genestealers to flank the devastator. Chaos forces might send swarms of cultists in to make the devastator waste all their ammo, then sending in their own heavy weapons units once said devastator has run out of ammunition. Judicious use of tactics appropriate to the faction will make the situation far more interesting than yet another frontal assault.

Also, how the frag is the devastator toting around both a heavy bolter AND a missile launcher? Even if another team member is carrying the thing for the devastator, it's still going to take a few turns to dump the heavy bolter and switch to the missile launcher. What's to prevent that other team member from using the missile launcher themselves on a side note?

One note about using hordes: use multiple hordes if possible. A mistake that a lot of GMs make (regardless of the system) is something that I once heard termed as "big weenie syndrome". Basically, it's the assumption that one big critter that's significantly (but not exponentially) more powerful than the PC group will be match for them. Not true. The PCs may be weaker or even out-classed on a one-to-one basis, but combined together, they have a far greater number of actions with which to do something. Hordes close the gap a bit by being able to shoot multiple times based on their magnitude, but in many ways, they are still a singular "big weenie".

Finally, how about crafting situations where that heavy bolter/missile launcher is going to be liability? Examples include urban warfare or close quarters deck-to-deck fighting on a space hulk. It's not inconceivable, for example, that a devastator is going to have a harder time turning around due to the heavy bolter banging into the wall. As for the missile launcher, that should be obvious; you risk getting caught in your own blast.

-Kirov

Charmander said:

These can be prevented with a more moderate toning down. According to my calculations a Devastator only infrequently does more than 7 hits anyway so a ROF of 7 won't hamper that much except against hordes but against hordes a Storm Bolter, for example, will not be as effective as it still does 5 damage max (ROF 4 + 1 for Explosive).

Also I recommend using 2D10+4 for all Bolt Weapons except the HB which might be given 2D10+8. Doesn't sound much but if a HB hits a Master-class enemy with 6 shots or so, that is 12 Wound points less.

Other than that - the Devastator is the damage dealer of the group. Place your enemies (including Tyrants and Tyranid Warrior) partially in cover and have the mooks charge the kill-team. And anyone with a Heavy Weapon should be a prime target for the enemy anyway.

Alex

PS There is nothing in the rules preventing other players from using a Heavy Bolter themselves. However don't forget that the Watch Captain would revise the loadout and could theoretically veto any set-tup that the GM doesn't like. A team with 4 or 5 HBs would have to be considered overkill on most missions.

First, Make sure you are doing the damage right I have seen alot of people misinterpret the rules on pg 239 for full auto. They get 1 hit for a successful roll then +1 per DEGREE of SUCCESS not percent and not 10 instant hits. For example if he has a BS of 60 and gets +20 for full auto thats a total of 80 and he rolls a 50 then he gets 4 hits 1 for the roll and one for each degree(10%) of success 70,60,50.

Second, Melee. Have that devestator go toe to toe with an Eldar Harliquen or Slaugth Warrior Vassle construct if you want something from the books.

Third, Artillary, hard to brace and fire when haveing to run from artillary shells.

Fourth, Snipers, can't kill what you can't see.

Fifth, Pskers, hmm my weapon is jammed.

Hope that helps.

One thing I've done with my group is to impose a reasonable limit on how many weapons they can carry at a time. 1 Two Handed melee weapon and their combat knife or 2 One Handed melee weapons, up to 2 pistols, 2 Basic weapons or 1 Heavy Weapon. Even for a Space Marine it's unreasonable to think of one carrying both a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher at once, esp since both are supposed to come with backpack ammo feeds.

I can't see a devastator carrying multiple heavy weapons as viable. Google search devastator models, you will note imidaitely just how bulky and combersome those weapons are. Carrying two is not possible to my mind.

So far our group have been playing the first free campaign, and as I see it the Devastator is churning it up. A tremendous amount of fire power, without the need to brace. As I believe the core rule book states space marines don’t need to brace, right?

As a GM and player I agree that RPGs should be and are more than combat based. But within my group at least two people in the group are keen to be Devastators and two want to be Librarians which will lead to holes in other skill sets. I don’t want to tell the players what to play, how can I stop them from becoming such an unrounded kill-team?

Also I agree, there is no way anyone could carry two HW's.

Peachey said:

You are correct, all marines start the game with bulding bicepts, which eleminates the need to spend a half action bracing the weapon. Note that unless they have the deathwatch stabilizer thingy, full auto is a full round action which means they can't move AND fire the weapon (though the stabilizer isn't that expensive, see the thread on 'is it too easy to move and fire').

If it were me I'd simply limit the number of a particular specialty in a group- for example in mine I limited it to 1 devestator, 1 apothecary, and 1 librarian. Part of that was thematic flavor reasons, and someof it is because I'm lazy and don't want the additional trouble of further customizing my encounters . That said if you let them take their career of choice and you've got 2 devs and 2 librarians, you'll just need to take a little more time in planning out your encounters- making sure the devs have plenty of tactics to think about when chewing through the hordes, and plenty of terrible creatures to keep your psykers busy.

For non-combat encounters you're going to have to customize it based on the chapter and chosen path of specialty your players take. But ultimately I'e found sometimes it's when your players leave a gap in their line of specialty that some of the best RP comes out- if none of them take fellowship abilities and they're sent on a diplomatic mission, how do they handle it? Sometimes failure or the high probability of it (especially if it failure doesn't equate to instant death) can be a lot of fun.

Thanks Chamander, sounds like reasonable suggestions.

I think i will limit the number of players with the following types Lib, Apoth, Dev & Tech. I assume Chaplins will become available at some point. There is enough variity to stop people going nuts.

I hope for chaplains in Rites of Battle but it's hard to tell- there should be plenty more specialties and options opened up with that book even if chaplains aren't there (though the role of a chaplain in the Deathwatch would be a tricky one). My players would prefer dreadnoughts to be there...

Charmander said:

Playing a Dread or having access to support from them? I suppose if you had enought renown it would be possible?

Not played DH or RT so not had access to vehicles, looking forward to getting some armor rolling.

Devastators are, and by all rights should be, extremely powerful when operating at considerably long ranges with wide, open field of fire and no need to move. However, it is, and should not be, same in enclosed places where he needs to move.

"Football Stadium Example"

Take a football stadium. Insert one (1) Devastator with heavy bolter and 1000 gaunts. If the Devastator stands at the other end of the open field and all the gaunts try to run at him across the field it is hard to imagine he would not be able to mow them down with ease. If the gaunts come at him from the multiple entrances on his side of the field he might be able to kill them before they reach him, but will have to swap targets very fast according to situation and staying alive will be generally harder. If you put him inside the stadium, in the long outer corridor he can watch the corridor and the outside but has to move so his killing power is seriously hampered. If you put himside a locker room with gaunts pouring in from shower room, outside corridor and that ventilation shaft 8 feet up he is dead before he knows it.

Peachey said:

They want to be inside the Dread

The core book talks about some dread's being empty and waiting in Erioch. I think it's totally plausable for upper ranked/renowned brothers to be considered for the "honor" of being entombed in an armored walker, but you're right, it would have to be a ton of renown, no new character would fit the requirements. Seems like a boring class to me, to be honest, being that you're not going to be considered for much other than front line duty.

Charmander said:

Not quite, Bulging Biceps removes the need to brace to fire heavy weapons on semi- or full auto.

It does not however remove the -30 penalty for doing so.

SomVone said:

"...and he does not suffer the -30 penalty for failing to brace."

Alex

Heavy automatic weapons have traditionally f**ked up thousands of people charging over open ground all through the 20th century, 20,000 years later if people persist in the same tactic it'll still do much the same. Except this time the only difference seems to be that the automatic weapon in question essentially also has the effect of being a grendade launcher just to make the remains that much more messy.

It only really works when they eventually run out of ammo before the the people charging the guns run out of bodies... or someone gets smart and decides to lob an artillery strike on the static defence set up, drop a bullet in their brain with a sniper rifle, or god emperor forbid, actually flank.

From what i have seen so far in my campaign , yes the devastator is extremely powerful when going up against hordes. However when the other characters, an assault marine, apothecary, tactical and a librarian have gone up against multiple hordes of magnitude 40-50 thats when the marines start getting hurt. As none of the marines can do more than 8-10 magnitude damage per round , the hordes are getting 4-5 attacks and in the unfortunate points that they hit do 3d10+mod damage. it may not be a great deal but the marines have been just shy of critical damage quite a few times. whe you add the devastator marine into the mix doing what the Dev does best -heavy support, the group rips through multiple hordes wth ease and very little damage is taken. when the Dev is facing hordes he gets a great many + to hits.

Looking at all the talents that increase damage phenomenally i.e the Storm of iron talent ,this only affects hordes (who are generally in the fight essentially as cannon fodder to be mown down as a backto whatever the main fight /action scene may be.

on the opposite side when a devastator marine goes up against multiple single targets his abilities way down. taking the genestealers from Final Sanction as an example , 4 genestealers charge the Dev from different directions, he has been on overwatch so was able to take out 2 (the ones that didnt dodge) he was then subsequently torn to pieces, only just surviving when the assault marine and the tactical marine helped him out.

Vs single targets the Devastators special abilities off quite quickly, there arent as many + to hit (no + for magnitude damage) the targets can dodge the attacks, and generally unless they are being really stupid can only take down 1 or 2 if they charge right at him. generally hitting with 2-3 degrees of success if any after the dodge attempts.

Other marines can do exactly the same thing vs single targets , the assault marine and Librarians specialise in close combat and are capable of doing far more damage in one round that the Devastator. The librarian can produce a god awful amount of damage esp. when he focus's power into this force weapon. the assault marine (who is currently armed only with a chainsaw) regularly hits an enemy 2 or 3 times. the tactical marine does just as well vs single targets as the Devastator and is still fairly capable in close combat.

Overall my view is that the Devastator marine is doing exactly what it should be doing. it allows one speciality to shine when against specific situations. The other specialities all have their moments.

The devastators are ridiculously overpowered at starting ranks mainly due to the output of weapon fire they have. This balances out when the rest of the group attain more/better perks. I did limit the weapons loadout to the following: The standard kit as described of each specialty (including the knife, bolt pistol, 3 frag and 3 krak grenades and the specialty weapon and chapter trapping). Further to that, space (not weight) considerations limit the additional weapons down to actually one more basic weapon or one melee weapon. I argue that space marines use maglocks on their weapons for ease of access and therefore have limited space to "hung" more weapons and maintain movement, dodge, silence etc capabilites. Further to that, i disallow another pack for the devastator. If he was wants, he has to carry it and this is terribly problematic as the HW need two hands free to effectively fire, unless the team decided to use ground vehicles in which case they can take along what ever stikes their fancy. Of course in such a case the minions multiply

The whole marine idea seems to me a balance between form and function. Whatever disrupts this balance is penalized heavily.

Fenric said:

To play devil's advocate here (sorry! I even don't really think the dev is that overpowered if you plan properly and fix the RF rules, but I have to say it) a devestator can unleash massive quantities of damage at a single target. Your tac armed with a botgun can do 4 hits, 5 if he uses bolter drill max. The HB, if it's lucky, can do 10. The HB also has better stats, meaning each hit is more powerful than the standard bolt gun. Take a tac and a dev at 10 paces and have them shoot at each other and there is a good probability the dev will be the one still standing.

And if the dev get's into Hand to Hand, he still has his trusty bolt pistol which will fire based on his BS, so now he's limited to being 'only' as good as the rest of the group, and if the rest of the group isn't concentrating on BS like he is, he has the potential to still be better. This is one of the OP's complaints- in HTH the Dev was still outclassing his pals.

Now personally I think this isall rectified with making encounters interesting and dynamic mind you, but if you're just comparing single to multiple enemies and damage output/kill count, the dev is still winning.

Devs can only carry one HW its in the rules on its own.

based on teh mission, I've had my Dev take several different weapons due to enemies fighting. So yea the HB is powerful but its there to kill hordes. That is what I throw at them for him to kill and then the bigger baddies come and have fun.

DrgnScorpion said:

What page does it say you can only carry 1 heavy weapon?

Delahunt said:

Is anything beyond common sense needed?