Player picked up a stock bolter through play early off the corpse of a heretic. He's two levels away from learning bolter, but wants to buy the ability to use the bolter as an expert advance. Anybody have a situation like this, I'm trying to come up with a price. He can train with the thing if he buys the ammo, so I can't see why the guy can't spend a little extra to use his prize.

I have used 200 exp as a base cost of an elite advance outside. If you want to be complicated about it, you might check to see how much the advance would cost the character when he reaches the rank need to get it and then charge 50-100 more exp then its eventual cost, but I found that cumbersome.

I usually, as a base line, go with the price at the higher rank plus an extra 50 per rank difference.

That one would work, I don't think giving him a bolter a few levels early will break the game, though it might break his bank trying to afford the ammo.

I ran into this when my character acquired an inferno pistol from her Inquisitor *many* ranks ahead of access to it.

Whilst I appreciate the 50/level difference addition, I think it depends on the utility of the specific skill/talent too. Something like Step Aside, say, is actually very powerful. Similarly with Fearless. They really boost what a character can do beyond their 'normal' setup.

Gaining a Weapons Training Talent seems almost irrelevant, by comparison. With Lore skills, as an example, if the character has relevant experience, researched or even just spent a campaign in the midst of the information, it's not inappropriate (in my eyes) to simply give them a CL, or perhaps a SL/FL as basic with chance for Insanity/Corruption gain, on the basis that it'll offer your player plenty of opportunities for 'reasoning' out of situations.

To parody the saying "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" you could see it easily by saying something like "if the only lore you have is FL(Traitor Astartes), every problem looks like a Chaos Space Marine."

That is: go for it. These little 'tweaks' (well measured Elite Advances) will add far more to the game than they will detract. Don't go overboard with them, but Weapon Training (Bolter) is not likely a problem!

Xisor said:

Agreed. For what it's worth, my method is:

If it is an advance they would normally gain access to later, then I just tack on 50 xp to the cost, assuming they have worked, in-game, to acquire it, and it makes at least a little sense for their character - as they have played it.

If it is something they normally wouldn't get at all, then I base the cost on two things - the advance's relative utility, and how well they have played acquiring it in-game. I don't have a hard, fast formula for these. But I will often look at when other careers may acquire the given advance, and how much it costs them, etc.

In any case, I find moderate use of elite advances for my players makes for more interesting and well-rounded characters.

I tend to agree with LuciusT and Peacekeeper_b that the whole career/rank structure is broken, and could use a complete revamp, if not a complete dump and start over with a career-less, rank-less system. But I haven't had the time to work out a playable alternative on my own time, so ...

I also allow "exchanges" for new skills/talents and so forth.

For example, I have three extra "categories" characters can utilize to gain skills. Obsession, Pact and Dedication.

Obsession allows a character to gain an extra 100 XP per 1D5 Insanity points they take. This represents studying, over thinking, researching and going all out in learning a new set of knowledge that borders on insane babbling. So if a character wanted to learn a forbidden lore that wasnt normally allowed and I set the price at 300XP, I would allow them to suffer 3D5 insanity to learn the skill instead.

Pact is a bargain or deal made with a higher power, be it a powerful psyker, a sorcerer, a daemon or whatever. (Halo Device, Xeno Manuscript et al) and otherwise works identical to Obsession but the few is in Corruption points instead of Insanity points.

Dedeication is when a subject becomes the very reason the character lives. It is his or her sole purpose of being alive. They dedicate themselves to the spreading/learning of the lore or knowledge or skill or whatever. They would die for it. The exchange is one Fate point per 100XP.

These "XP" expenditures do not count toward rank progression (nor do any XP spent on elite advances, or anything outside the current rank (or less) advance charts and so forth).

I also allow rival and enemy to be taken to alleviate XP fees.

And I make use of the notion of Campaign Advances from Tattered Fates, based on what they have encountered in previous adventures.

This seems like a reasonable alternative.

For more on my thoughts on this topic, please see LuciusT's thread in House Rules, http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=100&efcid=3&efidt=409234

Peacekeeper_b said:

While I can get behind either of the other ideas - especially since they add potential for rp - I have a hard time understanding why anyone would trade something as valuable as a Fate Point away for a mere 100 xp. Unless the points aren't being called for or used in your games, this seems a horrible waste of a valuable resource, considering how deadly the system can be.

Personally, I like the career system; it is a good compromise between a leveled and levelless design. It allows players to potentially improve every session or two (ever how often you give out xp) without making them wait for an entire level advancement the way games like DnD do, yet it limits access to more advanced and powerful talents/skills until the character has some experience under his belt. Additionally, it makes certain every career has a specialty and role in the party without a lot of overlap in the same levels between career types.

I agree, however, that sometimes it is appropriate for a character to gain access to a skill before it is listed in his advancement scheme - especially when dealing with weapons training and lores which can realistically be picked up any time under the right circumstances. (For that matter, I insist that all of a player's new skill purchases and advancements make sense within the parameters of the game. If the player wants skill X, but has never had anyone to train him in it, or has had no realistic way of picking it up during the campaign, I do not allow them to suddenly become proficient in its use. [this varies based on the skill/talent, of course ... Dodge is easier to learn than say, Security] If a player really wants such a skill I may allow them to take it with a negative to their rolls for a time, representing the fact that they are "learning as they go")

Jack of Tears said:

I dont force them to spend the fate point. Its thier option of the want extra XP to get skills, talents or advancements to characteristics. Some players are more then willing to trade a fate point to gain +5 Toughness to take their TB from 3 (T35-39) to 4 (40-44) and soak an extra wound every hit.

I based the 100XP per 1D5 Sanity, 1D5 Corruption, 1 Fate Point or 1 Wound from the background packages found in the Inquisitor's Handbook and the Radical's Handbook.

I am also a fair man and will allow the buying of skills in stages. First payment allows you to have a avanced skill as a basic skill and so forth. Or a weapon training talent be only -10 instead of -20 and when you buy off the rest they go to full levels. I am also practical, if the elite advance is something theu have used regularly, been exposed to or just logically would have had a chance to learn then I let them have it at a lower fee. For example, in one of my earlier campaigns, while escaping a prison one of the PCs got his hands on a chainsword, and at first started to just use it as a club (no clue how to charge it, fuel it, turn it on) and then after a few hours of clubbing people with it, they ran into a NPC who was able to tell him how to turn it on. He then used it for the rest of the adventure with the blade whirling. When the adventure ended I gave everyone 200XP except that PC who got 100 XP and Melee Weapon Training (Chain).