I tried searching for this on the forums but nothing came up. Yes I also scanned through the official FAQ and still came up with nothing.

If a character decides to become an Apprentice Wizard (after finishing a different one), I'm assuming that he/she does not get ANYTHING that a starting wizard normally gets, right?

SO no basic action cards for spellcasting (not even Channel Power).

Is this correct?

hmmm, i'd say you have to retired the character for a few years before he becomes an Apprentice. Then, once he is, he has the Basic Wizard cards

Necrozius said:

That's right. They have to buy those actions, plus access to Spellcraft and Channeling.

Yeah, I assume it basically shows the difference between someone who's main back story is "I was a studen of magic" and someone with some completely different backstory who suddenly decided to pick up magic.

Allwoing someone to enter a career like the Apprentice Wizard should really be up to the GM though. There are a few who are born with the ability to become wizards, you can't just find a book named "Wizardry For Dummies" and have at it. Allthough "Chaos Worship For Dummies" might do the trick, if you don't mind the mutations, damning of your soul and constant fear of discovery

I think them having to purchase all the basic cards/skills pretty much covers the difference between someone who has spent their background training, and someone who is in the process of learning.

The thing I struggle with in this method, is that because the career is limited to 10 advances and has limits on the actual number of actions it can buy within that, it means that by the time a non-starting wizard has bought all the action cards and skills a starting wizard starts with, they don't really have many advances left to get new skills or spells!

you could argue fluff wize the reasoning for this, but lets face it wizard is one of the iconic careers in the WFRP world and so you are likely going to have one player at least who wants to be a wizard (or initiate, who also fall into this problematic pot of having some basic action cards for "free").

The chance of that player randomly getting wizard apprentice or initiate as first career is slim and so you have to force them obtaining the career while riding rough shod over the fluff of many years of training being needed (having this extended training break simply isn't practical in many campaigns i would imagine), and they end up using most of their advances just getting to the same point as a player who starts in that career.

It hasn't happened in my game, but if it did, I would be inclined to allow purchase of certain skills with advances then freeing up the ability to get certain action cards for free; for example obtaining spell craft provides the basic wizard spells for free, only the advance for spell craft is required. Channel power sill has to be bought, but magic dart, cantrip etc wouldn't.

It's a kind of half way house between getting it all at character creation and having to buy it all if you go into the career subsequently.

pumpkin said:

A nice in-between method would be to force players to buy the cards/skills, but let them get 2 or 3 for one spent advance.

If players want to play a wizard I allow it, but only one wizard and one priest. Then they have to decide randomly and take turns when the wizard dies.

But only as a starting career. You can't change to it if you didn't start out as one.

Gallows said:

+1

That is what i meant with my 1st response to that thread. You don't become a Wizard or a Priest in that setting just by switching Career. It is described as spending months/years in study before being able to act as a member of those Careers (even then only as big noob / bottom ladder Initiates & Apprentices, only servants are lower than them in the "food chain"). Wizards also have to have an affinity with a Wind of Magic to get to Channel it or cast spells. The fluff from the core books & Winds of Magic is/are a good read too

I would rather have game balance I see no reason why on character should be either punished (swapping into wizard) or rewarded (new wizard with a lot more bits than anyone else). You can accomodate the fluff by talking it through & training monatages etc the connection to a god or a wind of magic is supposed to be somewhat innate & if a player wants to RP that connection they can have the class & the free stuff new wizards get for free in my game.

Pickles said:

Yeah sure anything goes, but a wizard is very special and for me that's something I want to take into account to stay true to the world. In fact I may change it so that in the future players can their general field, like soldier type, bookworm, clergy and then draw randomly from those cards. I think it can change up the sessions, so players sometimes get something they don't always play.

Cwell2101 said:

Yup, I agree with this very much.

In the case of our campaign, it was planned from the start that her character arc was going to take her into that role. Sort of like Luke Skywalker was just some dude who discovered that whole Jedi thing and began training (I ignore the Prequels and the whole bull crap midichlorians thing).

Yeah it's not appropriate to the canon, but whatever. She's aware that her darling PC won't ever be as potent as a "True" wizard, but Tzeentch works in mysterious ways...

Necrozius said:

You raise a good point with this... for me at least.

I don't want my players stuck with something else if they really want to play a wizard. But since it's possible to become one according to the rules, even if you don't start as one, this could be interresting as the wizard won't be as powerful as some lucky player who got the wizard career at character creation. It adds a bit of diversity, plus more freedom to players (freedom with consequence is how I like to run things as a GM).

So perhaps next time someone wants to create a character I'll ask them to decide if they want to be a warrior type, a schoolar or clergy and then let them draw from the appropriate stack. At least that lets players start as something useful in terms of characteristics, while they need to be lucky to be born with a strong arcane gift.

i forgot there is a random race & career determination possibility. We did not do that

I'd find some way to get a character into Wiz/Priest if he'd want to if we were using that random character generation system

Random careers are how Mr Coin became a forger.

Illustrious said:

!! and you let me chose mine ? well my thug Ray thanks you then

(the group i run chose)

Gallows said:

I made this thread a while ago which has a list of the different career traits with a list of what careers fit under each trait as well as some suggestions for way to use the list for alternate career choosing methods:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=396159

Ralzar said:

Very nice random career rules. I really like using the traits and letting the player draw a random career based on that. Good work!

Gallows said:

I spent forty quid on a wizard supplement & I want to use the rules in that book. If FFG had spend as much time on martial, menial & social characters as they have on wizards & priests then I would want to encourage more of them but as it stands the characters with the most interesting mechanics are also the most exotic in the canon so the proportion of swordmasters accompanied by a bushel of priests & mages I expect to see would horrify the average reikland peasant.

(I really like the Winds of Magic & think Signs of Faith is pretty **** good too. There is a load of good fluff in there that gives much better character & setting feel than there is by being a Watchman or Burgher even before the fact that the mechanics are more interesting. I would not want to penalise one player cos they really wanted to use this awesome resource & picked out "waterman". Of course randomly picking mage gets less likely the more careers there are.)

Yeah I know what you're saying Pickles and I DID allow a player to become a wizard without drawing any cards for the same reason. Sometimes the things that we as game masters can see as interresting (like wizards being rare) just isn't in the best interrest of your gaming troupe

Just allow the PC to buy some of the Actions before they advance to Apprentice. You get some out of career slots to use. Perhaps to be nice you could allow them to use some of their current in-career slots too. I wouldn't just give them free skills or action cards for free, though, as that is unfair to the other players.

dvang said:

How is it more unfair than someone drawing wizard as a starting career getting them for free?

Pickles said:

It's like a player with a low agility, strenght and toughness not getting block, dodge and parry for free after character creation. But I allow players to repeat careers if they want, so someone changing to wizard won't be at a disadvantage. They just have to buy the stuff like if you changed to a warrior career and raised your strenght, but had to pay for parry as well.

Exactly, Gallows.

Or, if a PC changes to a Priest career, are you going to give them Blessings and Curry Favor? Granted, a priest doesn't start with them for free (unlike a wizard), so it's not exactly the same, but the premise is. If you don't start with it, you must purchase it.

dvang said:

Priests start with curry favour and the petty blessings.

Unlike wizards though, they don't start with any skills, and thus has to buy Piety and Invocation.