Hopefully I remember that I posted this here, but to keep it short and simple:

Has anyone house-ruled PC death vis-a-vis the Progenoid and Heroic Death rules in DW? They seem like good game-y mechanics for supporting the kind of heroism that one presumes that Marines are out to give, but on the face of things it doesn't look particularly good at simulating the "reality" of the 40k universe.

Kage

I think it portrays it particularly well. When a Space Marine knows there is nothing else to be done, he tries to make sure that his life is sold at the highest cost. When his Progenoids are taken they had to give something for the player who sacrificed his character to save the rest of the Kill-Team, besically a reward. Since most players like their character type, they gave something for the player to "remake" the character without making it Generic Space Marine Jr.

As I said, all in all I like how they did the rules for that. Especially when there are other parts of the book that weren't done nearly as well.

It's an RPG, not rocket science. I can not only understand what it is meant to do, but I think that it's also clear that I understand why it was done. Once again, I feel that it is a good mechanic that supports the kind of game play that I'm sure that the designers wanted to see—larger-than-life, bombastic Marines that don't worry too much about character death because, more or less, you know that you're going to come back stronger than before.

On the other hand, recovering the progenoids of a fallen Marine is in no way going to "buff" the incoming Marine. Ergo it doesn't simulate the process in the universe very well at all.

So, once more, has anyone come up with an alternative? Do you require that the incoming Marine spend their granted XP or bonuses in a certain way? Or is it truly just a reward (and not an unreasonable one) to encourage the player to "make it count" and "go down in flames?"

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Realistically speaking I would say it should rather be about avoding further loss - damage control - for the surviving marines. At best a Marine could get some renown/experience if he was to recover the progenoid under dangerous circumstances.

Not as inspiring as the FFG mechanics but probably more realistic and more grimdark... perhaps an xp and/or renown penalty if progenoids are lost. Especially if they could have been recovered and were not.

What else could one implement from a simulationist pov?

Alex

I think the answer lies in what type of objective is recovering a fallen marines geneseed? Not all objectives are stated during mission briefing, marines don't look forward to having to do this, but if a marine does fall in combat, the reward for the member that recovers his body and for the one who recovers the geneseed should coincide with the xp and renown rewards for a suitably high objective. My two cents.

E

I'll take that all as a "no," then.

Also, just a reminder that I said that it was a good gamey mechanic, not a bad one. Might be worth pondering.

/Kage

Progenoids aka "The Chapter's Due" are essentialy the way Marine Chapters recruit. Each newbie needs his organs grown from a marine's seed and if they arn't recovered, the chapter can't reinforce. The organs themselves are more of less blank seeds for a new set of glands aside from any damage they've suffered resulting from DNA mutation within the gland itself.

Suggestion.

1 Progenoid recovered (usable condition)

-New Marine.

-May use the starting stats rolled for the Old PC if wishes.

-Double starting XP to spend.

2 Progenoids recovered (usable condition)

-New Marine

-May use starting stats of dead marine

-Tripple Starting XP to spend.

None recoverable (Marine lost in action, progenoids beyond recovery, NOTE: Not due to lazy squad mates)

-New Marine.

-Roll a D10, 1-4 Starting XP as normal, 5-7. double starting XP, 8 or 9 tripple starting XP, 10 quadrupple starting XP.

Well I don't think the replacement guy has anything to do with the guy killed from a simulationist pov.

From a simulationist pov recovering the progenoids has long-term, strategic importance. So would not be sure what to do with it otherwise.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I totally agree here- recovering the progenoid helps the chapter the guy came from, and helps with the relationship between that chapter and the DW.

The only think I could think of from a simulationist perspective is perhaps only give the bonus XP to the new character if he's coming from the same chapter, to represent that the chapter trusts the DW more (as they're getting their gene seeds replaced properly) and is willing to provide them with more capable soldiers. But that's kind of a weak try there.

I think its a two fold thing, first yes! Its to reward pc's that behave heroicly like space marines. In a way it encourages them not to fear death, just like a space marine wouldn't Now if your having pc's throw away chars for a stat boost then you have a an issue.

Second, it defines the apothacarys, its what makes them arguably the most useful (well second most). This is by far the most imporant duty a kill team will ever perform at least to them, the recovery of a fallen brothers seed is a huge deal. I think the rule kind of encourages it. A squad that just got out of a **** pit, may very well turn around and go right back in, only this time, they are going to be 20 times more pissed and have a whole new sense of duty, when a fallen commrade is involved.

It's very clearly a roleplaying aid.

The idea is to motivate players highly to do two things that their characters are highly motivated to do but which normally would have no benefit to the player:

1) Selling their life dearly

2) Trying to ensure that their geneseed will be returned to the Chapter upon their death.

Both of these are critically important to Space Marines, but mean little to players. The mechanical support makes them as higher priority to the player as the character.

From a simulationist pov, nothing prevents a new recruit to the DW marine from already being Rank 8. Who a chapter sends to the DW is entirely at the whim of the Chapter leadership. Kayvaan Shrike could turn up at the Fortress and join a killteam if his chapter sent him.

That all new killteam members begin at the same experience level is unreal . So how is a mechanic that gives a variation of experience level be more anti-simulationist than the default? If you wanted a more simulationist experience for character generation, you would need to randomise starting experience level.

From an actual playing-the-game point of view, having 1/4 the XP of other team-mates sucks. The rules provide a way to help prevent that.

Personaly I consider the rule silly. If a character dies I would let the player start a new character with the same amount of xp as the rest of the group, no matter what happend with the glands (though getting the glands back could make a good mission). Playing a character that is way behind the others is just no fun. You might also wonder why the Inquisition paired a rookie DW marine with the elites, squads arn't made at random.

You might say that it encurages the players to make sure their characters go out with a bang y if they are going to die. But come one, we are talking about mutant supermen defending the galaxy from evil. If your players need a mechanical excuse to go out in a blaze of glory, you need new players.

Are you saying that because players should roleplay there shouldn't be rules to encouraging them doing that? Because that's a little like saying that because players shouldn't munchkin, there don't need to be a rigorously designed set of rules that attempt to prevent them from doing so...

Siranui said:

My experiences tell me that a large hardback rulebook is a more effective deterrent for munchkin players than any text that rulebook contains. A "rigorously designed set of rules" just seems to encourage them... they take it as a challenge... but hitting them with the rulebook tends to get the message across quickly and effectively

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And this is why the collectors edition is the most effective to use...

Anyway, I would say as a house rule, the +5 to one stat should be made into "+5 to a attribute dice roll, capping at a 20 result of 2d10", basically giving them the ability to have slightly higher than average stats, without getting too crazy. I would leave the extra FP as is.

On the "lag behind in xp" aspect, I think its reasonably fair to not give a dead player xp (for that specific session), as a sort of "punishment" for dying. If the part that allows a player to get the xp is met, then allow them to get that sessions xp (I always get it mixed up if the blaze of glory is xp or the +5/+1 fp bonus, or if that is for the progenoids).

As far as mechanics go, I don't see any reason not to give mechanical benefits to good rp. Most systems encourage the giving out of xp. I see no reason to consider this as anything different, just that its not an xp reward, but something else.

Simulation wise, the above stated rule is not so broken either, as the end result could have just been attributed to chance. +1 FP is probably the big deal, but even that is just something special a player gets (possibly should also consider capping that if the player rolls max fate points on the new character).

Siranui said:

Not quite, I am saying that this particular rule is imo silly and that more rules is not always better. Also, it has always been my experience that the looser the system the less people will munchkin and the more they will roleplay. When there is a rule that makes it a good idea to do a certain thing, then doing it suddenly becomes more of a mechanics than a roleplaying choice.

KommissarK said:

That could kill a man.

postalpatriot said:

Yeah, the owner. "What have I done?!"

Alex