Agreed, love em or hate em, GW has taken it's time to establish itself as the leader and it took a lot of time. Privateer Press has also taken ten years to mold itself into basically the 2nd place spot for the most part. PP has also found the pitfalls of trying to make everyone happy and irking more than a few by redesigning it's system, though it was badly needed. You have to make sacrifices and not worry about making every gamer happy to be successful in the long run. You also need regular, punctual releases and most of the games that have faded recently have fallen victim to either distribution or overextended dead periods. As long as this game doesn't follow suit with the dead periods, I think it will survive well. This game seems like it's going to be somewhat dependant on the appeal of future releases after all.

I tend to agree with McFonz and Hamomag. Kris if you want to get all on your soap box about how awful GW is and how they just ruined your life or something, go ahead buddy. There are still a lot of guys playing the game and will continue to play it for years to come. And frankly if you think it's cheap to buy new sets of books everytime they released a new version of D&D you must never have played the game. lol I bet I spent an easy 600 to 800 bucks on that stuff everytime they changed to a new edition.

We all understand that you are adamantly opposed to Dust Tactics being converted in any way to a tabletop miniatures game like WH40K. All I can tell you is get set for disappointment because it's going to happen at some point and like McFonz said, it just means there will be two versions of the game. One on the board and one on the tabletop. Frankly I think that is just cool and it will give Dust Tactics a unique aspect that WH40K doesn't have. Some guys will prefer the grid system and some will prefer the open tabletop but McFonz is right, take away the squares and it's already just a miniatures game. So we can back and forth until the cows come home about the pros and cons of what will happen when Dust Tactics finally gets a set of tabletop rules. But one thing is certain, it will get those rules. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if someone figures out a way to put it on a hex system as well. Heck it could be the first miniatures game that uses three sets of playing surface. Grid, hex and free style. Who else can say that?

I always love the bashing of GW, now I personally am a bit of a GW fan. As they paved the way for miniature gaming as we know it.

ALSO they are by far the most sucessful miniatures company in the biz.

i notice no one has yet shown my statements wrong , infact many of your points support what i have said regarding the path a table top minis game goes as opposed to just continueing on as a board game .

dust will either follow in the foot steps of WH40k with HUGE swathes of people getting burned and dropping it , or in the footsteps of at-43 which is .........dead . either way , the board game will be the first to go/get shafted .

GrandInquisitorKris said:

But Dust isn't really your traditional board game is it? And there are even fewer successful long term stories involving board games. As has been pointed out on this thread.

The reason why this is so clever is that it is a tabletop wargame on a board. The background is far greater than most other board games - and again reflects that of a wargame.

The intelligent thing would be to have this as a 'basic' version and as it is doing now, build up a large enough customer base. The next few releases will decide its success I would guess. And then it will dictate where and how they go on from there.

But to say that it would better survive as a boardgame rather than a tabletop game isn't accurate.

Aren't the Tabletop rules going to be a free supplement for Dust Tactics? If so, will it really have that big an impact? Truthfully, and I love tabletop minis games, but I just want more 3D terrain and more figures to play with and I'll be happy to play Dust Tactics on the boards.

GrandInquisitorKris said:

Actually we have done nothing but shown your statements to be wrong you just refuse to accept it. LOL

For someone who so despises War Hammer 40K you certainly have a strange choice of screen names GrandInquisitor Kris. LMAO

You have no idea how the future of this game will play out, just your own speculation based on what you want to believe. In fact no one knows how this game will do over time as it evolves and expansions are released. It will either be a success or it won't. It's not going to turn out "just like 40K" as you espouse because it's not 40K and this is not games workshop.

Dust Tactics thus far is a great game and I enjoy it. I fully intend to buy every expansion and alll of the interim units that are released. If they release a tabletop version of the rules I'll give it a try and see how I like it. If it's a good set of rules I'll play both sets of rules. Just because a miniatures game adopts a set of rules that takes it off the board and puts it on a tabletop does not in any way mean its just following the footsteps of 40K or that its going to fail like 40K. That summation would be "wrong".

While I agree that the rules for WH40K or Flames of War would not work for Dust Tactics, this does not preclude DT from evolving to SOME type of tabletop sucess. DT as it is now is a hybrid board game/minis game so I feel we should not assume it will grow to some predefined gaming system. My guess is it will remain a hybrid even if it leans a little more towards tabletop in the future.

I see it playing more like the Star Wars collectible minis game, albiet with squads. This I do not feel is a bad thing, just maybe not as hardcore as some might like. Though I don't feel hardcore was ever in the minds of the designers. Not that I have any idea what goes through thier minds. (massive cleavage joke from other thread here)

-Jeff

Shooter said:

Its funny that you bring that up cuz I was thinking the same thing with his name.

Two things that jump out at me. 1. GW is ridiculously sucessful. Have they lost some folks along the way? Sure they have what game company doesnt. Are they still by far and above number 1, after 25 years of it, YEP. Privateer proved that another company that is different can stick around as well. they have been doing it for a good 8 years now, as number 2.

NOW lets jump to the fact that Fantasy Flight is putting this game out. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? They will REFUSE to let a game die, crap, I used to play Game of Thrones CCG, NO ONE PLAYED, and they still produce the game regularly. They just repackaged it. I spoke with my LGS manager and he said one thing about this game.. .."I saw that Fantasy Flight took over for it, thank god, cuz it means it will never die now." He is correct. That is their MO, if they like something they support it, till its completely burnt in the ground. THEN they repackage it and support it again.

I enjoy this game alot, Its VERY simple, but cool enough. I am also a WW2 fan. I play Flames of War as well, ANOTHER company that has gone close to a GW route and are doing very well 10 years later. I have no fear that this game will remain solid.

I am beginning to think that GIKris just enjoys a good strong argument.

Just curious, has anyone on here every played a game call Gear Krieg from Dream Pod 9. Its a pulp-fiction alternate WWII history with advanced super weapons, walkers, rocket truppen, etc. They had released a miniature line in 15mm which was quite nice. Walkers basically with some specialty troops, as most other WWII equipment in that scale was reliable available. I started playing it about 10 years ago. Very detailed but somewhat complex rules. Vehicles had a ton of stats to keep track of but otherwise a good game. They have since quit supporting it but Dust has sort of got me re-interested in it. I've started introducing rules from that system into my Dust games for a little more detail. Until they come up with full-table top rules I think I'll try adapting these.

BigDogg said:

Have they really stopped supporting it? I know DP9 is a tiny company, but they released a couple of Japanese walkers earlier this year. I've never played Gear Krieg per se, but am a great fan of Dream Pod 9 in general. Have been painting some Heavy Gear stuff recently and am waiting for the eventual resurrection of their Jovian Chronicles line.

As for the actual subject of this thread: I don't really see it as "evolving" into tabletop wargaming. They've said that at some point in the future a tabletop ruleset will be released as a free pdf download and that's where I expect it to remain; as an alternate way to play for those who like that. But I still think Dust Tactics is firmly entreched in the "hybrid" game corner. And although I've yet to try it I like the idea of the squares.

Gear Krieg would have been very popular if not for the 15mm scale...poor choice if you ask me. Rules were good. Fluff and support was really good. Sad to hear that they are no longer supporting it.

I am confused about the rest of the discussion here. You can find a game of 40k in every major (and most minor) city in the known world. Criticism of their business model...or their marketing...makes no real sense. I hope that this game sees 1/10th the success.

Also, as stated above, Fantasy Flight is another company who can be counted on immensely. Enjoy the game. Buy it. Support it. It will stick around.

Gear Krieg is still being supported, but not really by DP9. They still sell the figs, but the game is now being handled by one of the writers of the Battlefield Evolution system, and that is what the current edition is being used. DP9 is concentrating on Heavy Gear only right now but they are partnered with AD Publishing. It's battlefield evolution which was originally put out by Mongoose, with rules to use 15mm miniatures instead of 28mm which is what the game was made for.

Just last week AD publishing put out a new supplement for Gear Krieg, and have many more planned so the game is not abandoned. DP9 is helping out by putting out some new figs when they can, they just released a few months ago new Japanese walkers, and supposedly some more walkers for other countries are planned for the future when they have sculptor time available.

RedWidow said:

Actually 15mm is one of the leading most well liked sizes for WW2. Flames of War does teriffic. However when it comes to Wierd, since you are usually not fighting with entire Tank Divisions, and what not, its much more likely to do well at 28.

I for one am looking forward to the TT rules and think they cant come soon enough. My gaming store group likely will not take it seriously as a minitures game until it is. No one is going to pay $100 bucks for a minis game without the terrain rules go with it, locally anyway except a few of us. Just like AT43 we had two players until we quit demoing with the tiles and started using TT and we picked up a bunch more interest because now the game looked cool and became cinematic. Aside from a starter set here and there to paint the awesome minis I doubt the game will pick up in my area with the regular gamers until true TT rules are released.

Tabletop or not, I really like the squares. I look forward to making a huge table with squares and modular terrain. Think the squares was one of the best things they did with the game. And the Dice!! priceless. No guessing, no calculating, just killing

Col. Dash said:

Same situation here. I was into AT-43 as well and met the same resistance at the LGS with the starter set and 2D map. I like DT as it is, but I have very limited options for board game opponents. Like it or hate it most of the players I know are table top snobs.

Assuming a set of alternate TT rules is released as a pdf. They wouldn't need to change the core game. They wouldn't need to change the way it's marketed. All they would do is give games who like BOTH tabletop and board games a different way to play.

I completely agree. As someone shared some useful ideas above on easy conversion rules.

True line of sight with the cover type being important. You will have to differentiate buildings and trees as different obviiously, but that can be done before game and isnt anything TT gamers arent used to doing already.

Range between squad leaders.

Move and range distance is simply a matter of turning the squares into inches or cm.

I dont think there would be a problem with U range weapons, tank battles generally were not fought point blank so shooting across the table still doesnt take advantage of the tanks main weapon's range.

From a business end, this makes great sense and taps into a large market that already exists. I know at least several TT gamers who refuse to play 40k but love historical and sci-fi minis games and this is perfect for them.