No chapter can function without these psykers.

Is there any canon on how Black Templars treat their own Astropaths and Navigators?

Fresnel said:

Well I assume they must use them, but according to the codex they wont take psyker allies into combat. So I would assume they leave them on the ship.

the space wolf have an old agreement with the house belisarius....an old house of navigator from Terra...

for the most part of them I think they will treat them pretty badly with seclusion and guards.

But there is things that even SM must think about.

1- Even if psyker navigators come from house who protect them. If they are not happy with the treatement of on of them they will surely stop to supply navigators to that fleet.

2- Astropath are psyker but they are tied to the emperor with a bond even SM can't have. Maybe this special link with the glorious emperor of Mankind protect them.

So as peacekeeper has said they are surely leave on the ship. Because Black templars don't use psyker on battlefield but and for the best navigators and astropaths are by use far from the fight.

The Black Templars have been on crusade long enough to have raised their own cadre of Navigators from whatever stock they had originally, which would make them uniquely and wholly independent. I suspect this is probably the case, and said Navigators have probably been conditioned that their existence is an offence, and unfailing service is their only hope of repentance and salvation.

from lexicanium...

Doctrines and Codex adherence

Black Templars place great emphasis on close combat prowess and honour. As such they can often be seen charging into suicidal situations to avenge fallen comrades, but this does not dispel that such tactics indeed prove effective. By their doctrine, they abhor the traitor, the alien and the mutant. The latter trait means that Black Templars stand apart from most other chapters by eliminating Librarians from their organisation. The reason for this is that Librarians are psykers, and psykers are considered a mutant trait that must be kept apart from potential warp influence during battle. However, Black Templars do use non-combat psykers in other tasks that do not directly involve combat. These include Astropaths and Navigators.

I can just imagine, ' You sicken me wytch, there will come a time when you are burnt at the stake, so set course for the Scarus sector.'

One would pressume that are nice hypocritical about the whole thing and see Navigators and Astropaths as gifts from the Emperor.

That's pretty much the case, Face Eater, although "gifts" might be a strong term. As I recall reading (though not where; maybe in the DW rules), the Black Templars grudgingly accept that Astropaths and Navigators are the work of the Emperor, and part of his plan. I suspect the Black Templars look upon them more as an ongoing test of loyalty and faith than as gifts.

if He trusts you have to trust
even if you suspect them
you treat them with respect

Perhaps the BT are Polarists rather than outright monodominants

The exact attitudes and treatment will, of course, also vary from one Black Templar to the next... rank, role, and pure pragmatism will all come into influencing these interactions.

Sword-Brother Gruntius the lowest-ranked member of Tactical Squad #34 probably has zero contact with the Navigator(s) and has probably only seen and never spoken with the Astropaths. Brother Gruntius is going to operate on a "All wyches are evil, but some are a necessary evil." mentality.

Brother-Captain Veteranio, on the other hand, as master and commander of the Strike Cruiser Kickassio has to work with his Navigator every single day; Although a highly decorated and much respected veteran of a hundred wars and thousand of battles, he has spent the last century on the bridge of a warp ship and is becoming more accustomed to the hum of the Gellar Field generators than the whir of a chainsword. To a man like this, "The Emperor knows all men's souls, and I will trust in His wisdom... but with caution." is going to be the order of the day.

There is going to be a full spectrum of opnions and reactions across the whole chapter. Besides, its not like the Imperium of Man is without its internal inconsistencies and hipocrasy.

The Black Templars attitude stems from the Dictate of the Concalve of Nikea, by which the Emperor banned the use of Libararians totaly and for all time.

This was later rescinded by Roboute Gulliman during the post heresy era but First Captain Sigismund (First High Marshall Black Templars) decreed that he would never permit Libararians in his eternal crusade, citing the Emperor's decree absolute at Nikea. Primarch Rogal Dorn is not noted for his response, but since both the Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists make use of libararians as normal, Sigismund's outburst and nominal lack of adhearance to the codex in anything but the broadest sense may be considered somewhat "abberant".

It should be noted that the decree absolute only forbit the practice of astartes libararians, not navigator or astropathic psychics.

Wasn't the conclave of Nikea about the ban on sorcery and the definition of what is sorcery and what are acceptable psychic traditions ?

That was a bit of a cover story. It was most a way for the Emperor to tell Magnus The Red to "shut up and sit down" without hurting his feelings too much, and with the pretense of listening to both sides. But from the way Graham McNiel writes the emperor's body language, it's clear his mind has been made up from the start. (His use of lanugage is also quite telling, inspite of an impassioned and poigniant speach by the white scars libararian speaking on behalf of Magus' idea that the warp can be a force for order)

Essentialy the Decree Abosule was that no Astartes would ever traffic with the powers of the warp. At the time, the "hot button issue" was the Thousand Sons legion who, as red headed stepchild of the Great Crusade kept pushing the buttons of Primarchs like Mortarion and Russ. As a result it seems at some point a quorate number of them got together and petitioned Horus to "go to dad about it".

"Do you want to know more?" ( wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikea )

The true irony, of course, is that the Emperor himself is one of the most powerful psykers in existance, his representives to the Council consisted of five individuals, of whom three were psykers of incredible power: the Choirmaster of Astropath, the Master of Navigators, and Malcador.

This decree was, eventually, lifted. Presumably by the "will of the Emperor," manifested by either the Tarot or a decree by the High Lords of Terra. Librarians are part of the Codex Astartes and I doubt that Guilliman woul dhave included them without a rather obvious sign from the Emperor that the use of librarians was kosher. We all know that over the millennia the High Lords of Terra and other higher-ups in the Imperium have invoked "the will of the Emperor" to justify or explain away their own motives.... but I just don't see Guilliman and the other primarchs going falling for that.

I can't see the Codex Astartes being amended so baltantly to include Librarians without the Ultramarines throwing a fit unless it was in the original document.

Although, given the original decree was about "Legion Astartes" perhaps Gulliman thought "Chapters" were safe?

JinxZero said:

Yeah... I don't see Gulliman as the type to play schemantic games with the spoken word of the Emperor.

Librarians were allowed back into the fold sometime after the Council of Nikea, we just haven't been given details as to how or when... probably because the event(s) surrounding that decision just wouldn't be as dramatic as a face-off between two halves of the Legions. The Council of Nikea makes for awesome drama... the assembly, proof-reading, editing, and final codification of the million pages of the Codex Astartes? Yawn.

Yeah, gotta agree, Streight Laced Gulliman knowling going against a decree absolute? Humm. Worth pondering. I imagine if Dan abnett were to write the book about the compliation of the codex, its pages would be painted in the blood of scribes shooting each others brains out in spectacularly improbabyl firefights...

... of course I'd still sell my grandmother to buy the first copy. *Shifty eyes*

JinxZero said:

Perhaps he meant day to day astartes? You know, tactical level and so forth. The Thousand Sons were moving to a more "everyone oand their battle brother" level of sorcery.

JinxZero said:

They shall be my finest bureaucrats, these men who give of themselves to my civil service. Like white clay shall be their countenance, and in over air-conditioned cubicles shall I house them. They will be of stale coffee and red tape. In grey flannel suits shall I clad them and with the mightiest typewriters will they be armed. They will be untouched by pitty or empathy, no sympathy will move them. They will have rules, regulations, and procedures so complex that no man can move them to any end. They are my bulwark against Efficency. They are the Redundant Department of Redunancy Department. They are my Administratum and they shall know no cheer.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm dying to see Codex: Administratum...

Michigan said:

I laughed and wept

Michigan said:

LOL. Anyone know the Paranoia RPG Form Pack? Somehow this just came to mind...

Alex

Guilliman probably did decide to go "F this noise" to the Nikea decree, since he basically took it upon himself to put on the big boy pants and take the biggest chair at the big boy table after the Heresy. I mean, who gave Guilliman the right to impose his will on the other Legions? The guy had the Navy open fire on the Imperial Fists for not getting in line and marching to the beat of the Ultramar drums, you know. And I can't see semantics getting out of it - the HH novels use Chapters as a unit with the Legions Astartes just like Company and Squad.

I also like to think that the Black Templars don't have too much problems with astropaths and navigators since the Emperor explicitly permitted their use in the Nikea decree. Though the astropaths and navigators probably have to spend their time in the Pit of Shame, or the Subdeck of Ignominy.

Odds are good that after the Emperor's Plan to Ignore the Warp (and make everyone else ignore the warp and thus, because it's powered by beilef, it'll cease to exist) fails when Horus goes ape s & Magnus ruins humanities hope for using the Webway instead of having to travel through the Warp at all, he (since he's still able to speak and communicate for awhile) tells Robby to put the Librarian project back in place.