One of my players seem to think that the psychic rules in Ascension (such as fettered, push etc) should be used in nomarl pre-ascension dh. is this the case? cause i believe as a gm they are too overpowered.

No, you don't use them before Ascension, when you ascend you are "reëducated" and thus become more powerful, Rogue Trader Astropaths do use them from the start however....

By RAW you only get access to them after Ascension.

Although some GMs allow them to be used pre-Ascension, for various reasons. Some want to tone down the Psyker as a totally loose cannon and some consider it ludicrious that a sanctioned psyker can be eaten by a daemon when trying to light a candle with his powers.

Furthermore, the Fettered/Unfettered/Push rules are used by ALL sanctioned psykers and even rogue psykers in RT and DW, not just Astropath Transcendents and Librarians. Which brings me to the conclusion that they will become the new "standard", perhaps the Psyker source book that might will come after Blood of Martyrs and Only War will have all Core Psychic Powers convertred to the RT and DW system.

I brought it in early at rank 6, mostly because the psyker was more of a menace to the party than any of the NPC's where for a while and statistically, he was just going to kill himself and the entire party with flat dice rolls. Now if he wants to risk-all, try his luck or restrain himself, he can as I dont believe in random accidental death by dice... death by personal choice and stupidity however, I'm all for!

I think the key to fettered, unfettered and push working properly is that they should work the way they do RT... which is to say that powers scale with the psy rating used to manifest them, so a fettered power is inherently weaker than an unfettered one and a pushed power is quite a bit stronger. A rough (very rough) way of approximating this would be to replace all instances of Characteristic Bonuses with Psy Rating when defining the range or effect of a power. Done that way, I think they might work, though I haven't tested it.

In Ascension, it seemed to me that only Primaris Pyskers get to use the fettered/unfettered/push rules? Oddly, Inquisitors don't seem to be able to. I read through the various sections, but couldn't find anything that said "this applies to all psykers once they ascend". Quite the opposite.

Specifically:

Pg 124: "If a psyker survives long enough to be elevated to the rank of Primaris , he learns how to mask his presence from the warp. A psyker can modulate, or fetter, his powers, reducing the the warp energy he syphons through his mind"

Later on in the same section they mention just "psyker", but by context we must assume it refers to the above type of psyker. Otherwise we'd have to assume it applies to all psykers (for instance it never says "ascended psykers").

Am I missing anything?

thanks for the help. this psyker was simply get too overpowered compared to the rest of the party ( a nasty combo of chameleon, distort vision, nasty melee and stupidly high WP) i'll make sure to enforce this from now on.

Targetlock said:

Make sure you are using the Errata for the psykers powers. Distort Vision was altered.

Corwyn said:

No, I don't think you're missing anything.

In the campaign that I play in, only the Primaris has the full effect for using fettered/unfettered rules. But they're aso the ones most likely to use their powers on a continual basis, as the Adept uses hers occasionally, though her recent 'firebug' tendencies have my Psyker leading the charge in wanting to put her down, a complete role reversal for my character. But I digress (again!).

If you allow other classes the option of using these rules, then you're taking away the special 'cookie' that those Psykers who work hard to gain control of their powers would get. While I originally wanted to create a hybrid blend of Psyker & Crusader, it was this sticking point that made me decide it was safer for me to go Primaris. Most of what a combat oriented Psyker would want from other classes, would still be available as elite advance anyway, a fact that my GM kindly pointed out.

You do bring up a valid point, the idea that if an Inquisitor gains Psyker abilities, could they gain the fettered rules, possibly as an elite advance? I would say yes, but we're talking about doing so as something along the lines of a 2000 point elite advance, and a lot of down time. But I could see it happening. And it should be open ONLY to Inquistors and perhaps Interrogators, but no one else.

My two coppers worth... I hope it helps.

Denmar1701 said:

Cool, thanks. Yes, this does help. I wanted to be sure I at least got the rules correct (as they were written).

It does seem a little odd to me that it's the Inquisitor who then becomes the loose cannon, especially as I've just started reading the Eisenhorn books and I see (in the first chapter no less) how casually Inquisitor Eisenhorn uses psychic powers. You'd think that any self-respecting Inquisitor would get himself trained in how to control his own powers. But I never thought of using Elite Advances, especially for a career game mechanic (and not a Talent). But I can see how in this case it might be appropriate, and would eliminate the issue.

Targetlock said:

IMO, just use it, if you like to.

I don't think that they are overpowered.

Seriously, you just can't fettered any power when your Psy Rating is less than 4, maybe even 6, because it just wouldn't worth it.

Furthermore, in that case, it would be very tempting to push.

You would be surprised. High WP + Invocation makes fettering rather easy, and than since Sustain rolls cannot pheno, it can be Sustained as per normal without any risk at any point of the manifestation.

Basically the problem ends up being put onto the player. The issue with Psykers is they become the de facto "magic user", in that their special abilities make them be able to fulfill any role in the group (largely). Since they can (and do) this, they step on everyone elses toes exceptionally easy. The control to limit psykers from doing this too much is the Pheno/Peril system, and fettering introduces an element that makes it impossible for that control system to kick in. It may not apply on all the Disciplines (right away at least), but it sure does end up giving people free minor power usage and what not.

Is the line really being drawn at "free minor powers"? Should every attempt at making even light to see have a chance of inhabiting the psyker's body with a Daemonhost? Really?

Honestly, unless we're talking a psyker already sustaining a power, minor powers really shouldn't require much chance of danger. Only invocation should grant easy success at the more difficult Discipline powers. While Psychic Barrage is definitely powerful, those 5+ 1d10 +5+ shots aren't quite so effective over the long haul when they take 2 turns to deliver. Getting quick and easy success should generally require some risk, ala Phenomenon (and Perils).