So has there been anything decided on how the new expansion mixes with RtL? How do Feats work? How do Karnon and Arvel Worldwalker work in regards to Feats and Skills?

Right now we let everyone draw Feats as normal, but only get to keep one to start. They then receive them as normal during play.

We let Karnon start with 1 Skill and 1 Feat. We let Arvel have 1 Melee Skill and 1 Ranged Skill and 1 Feat. It works for us until we hear something different.

I'll try that again...I guess copy and paste doesn't work in these here parts.

"For now, I'm going to recommend you give them one feat card of the same type as the skill they keep at the start, and then just play it normally, but carrying the same hand of feats through the whole campaign, drawing one new card each time a glyph is activated. They can still draw feats from any deck corresponding to a skill they have at least a 1 (or an actual skill card) in." (Kevin Wilson)

Schmiegel said:

A reply which smacks of "oops, we didn't consider feats with RtL at all so I'll make something up on the spot - and I can't tell people not to use the cool new toy that we didn't consider for RtL or I'll get lynched!"

It is my considered opinion that Feats were not tested with RtL at all and no one at FFG thought about how they would interact with the RtL campaign. Note that there is no mention of Feats in the RtL section of ToI rules and no mention of RtL in the Feats section of the ToI rules. This is despite the fact that Feats are closely tied to skill 'picks' and the skill system in RtL is substantially different from base Descent. Note also that FFGs design policy is to make each expansion independent of the other expansions, although a lot of crossover is possible.

No disrespect to KW intended, but I seriously doubt whether any real consideration was (or could have been in an 'answer' timescale) really given to this answer.

I would highly recommend that you play a few (RtL) practice dungeons with Feats before allowing them into a campaign. Probably a dungeon or two (all the way through) at bronze level, again with silver level starting setup (allow the OL to spend most or all of his CT, probably largely on boosting monsters and maybe some treacehry - possibly limit the spending to 75-80 CT/100 to accont for other spending on Lts, Avatar upgrades etc) and maybe again with Gold level starting characters. I will be.

I strongly suspect that Feats will unbalance RtL severely*, due to the fact that there is no cost for either acquiring or using them. However this is just analysis without testing at this stage for me. It does seem clear though as Feats are clearly a rebalancing effect countering the OL's Treachery (everyone says that the later expansiosn made heroing much much harder, even too hard). However Treachery has a large cost in RtL, both in CT and in Threat when playing it. Feats are free, and free. So is lunch apparently...

Current ideas for house rules;

- Limit the heroes to 1 Feat total per glyph (to the hero that activates it) and one choice of starting feat similar to skills (limits the damage of an unbanced effect being added to the game)

- Allow the heroes to choose either CT or Feats each time they activate a glyph (leads to a game-cost in acquiring Feats, if not in using them)

- Charge the heroes resources (cash, wounds, MP, Fatigue, CT) to buy or use Feats (some cost at least, either campaign cost or in-dungeon cost)

*Note that now the effects of all the green hero parties blundering about and making beginner mistakes (myself included), the amount of 'Copper is too hard' complaints has drastically reduced and more and more (though not all) reports seem to have much more even games. Often the heroes are ahead even in Bronze. I think that RtL is much more finely balanced without feats than many of us realised to start with, at least early on. Later in the campaign it appears to still heavily favour the Heroes.

I have not played with Feats yet, but I've heard a lot of concern about them and what Kevin's response means for RtL and a lot of complaints that the Overlord didn't stand a chance.

One questions / Idea that I have is why keep the feat cards from dungeon to dungeon? If the players start with 1 feat and collect 1 feat per glyph than how is that system any different from a non-RtL game(other than the 2 fewer feats)? The carrying feat cards from dungeon to dungeon aspect seems to be what's unbalanced and a big concern for the Overlord since it encourages players keeping their good cards for the final battle and some other mean tactics above and beyond what they were meant for.

If my players insist I buy ToI I'm going to say that feat cards disappear at the end of each dungeon since that seems more in tune with how they were meant.

Neostrider said:

Thats one feat per glyph (proposed, and only for the hero activating it), not one feat per hero per glyph.

Unless you are talking about Kevin's response, in which case there is effectively no difference from the base game (other than starting the heroes with slightly fewer Feats, which is an irrelevance over the larger timescale of the whole game).

Even not keeping them between dungeons, thats still 16 (1 each hero + 3levels with a glyph and thus 4 Feats per level) feats minimum per dungeon. At no cost. Compare this with the OL's expensive (in CT) treachery, of which he will have none early on, only a few points for most of the campaign and possibly little (more than 4-5 would be a surprise) or even none right to the end. And its entirely possible that the OL may not even get the opportunity to pay Treat to use his Treachery.

I'm considering this very thing myself ...here's what I've got on the plate to test now that I've found my RTL Book.

One feat per hero per dungeon of one of their skills to start.

One feat per hero for per glyph as normal ( or maybe a limit of once per level since some floors are really easy and have 2-3 glyphs on them for some reason)

And when a hero dies they lose half their feats (rounded up I think ... to a minimum of one remaining) when they die. Gives an incentive to not dying as opposed to meat grindering through dungeons.

Feats go away at dungeon completion (less to keep track of)

One feat per hero for Overland encounters (aside from the new girl who get's two)

Another option is to limit the number of feats you can hold based on the campaign level:

• Copper: Heroes can hold up to 2 feats at most.
• Silver: Heroes can hold up to 3 feats at most.
• Gold: Heroes can hold up to 4 feats at most.

I like the rule of randomly discarding some or all your feat cards when you leave a dungeon for good.

J

jwdenzel said:

Oh yes, and Avrel gets +1 to anything mentioned above.

We are running RTL with the feats with no house rules at all. We dropped them all because of the way feats change the game.

I am getting kicked pretty hard right now but my heroes started with Telekinesis and Grapple. I am hoping my first monster upgrade will help me.

The Fly feat is really nasty. This allowed the heroes to get through one level in 3 turns. Three of their turns mind you I got 2 turns, that really sucked.

I am not sure how to balance the feats without completly killing the power of them. I really think the OL needs to be either given a new mechanic also, or the cost of some stuff needs to be reduced. I am not sure what I would do to be honest. The balance of the game is hard to hold in RTL and of course you have the entire issue of the fact that the game is competiative in the first place, but now is not the time to open that can again.

jwdenzel said:

This is a good idea. Except it allows gold heroes to be that much stronger, and from what I hear out here, the goal is to trim them as you approach gold. So an increasing scale isnt appropriate... I would just say the person who opens the glyph gets the feat. This causes some extra planning, which has a cost - if players want their tank to get a glyph, then they have to wait for that guy to get to it. If they have speedy run up and tag the glyphs, then their feats will end up on a fast rangestriker. That adds a bit of cost to the heroes using them, and makes it so there arent 16 feats per dungeon. 3 or 4 would be enough! You get a light dusting of feats, which makes them actually feats then, instead of the standard way of powering up before beating each level master.

-mike

When I saw the Kevin Wilson ruling about using feat cards in Road to Legend, I thought it had the feel of an opinion arrived at while juggling five balls at once with a deadline 15 minutes away. It's a little hard to understand how a mechanic as important as feat cards would be omitted from the Tomb of Ice rulebook section about integrating TOI with Road to Legend. Perhaps there are two different divisions within the game company working on the respective expansions, and they don't communicate adequately. You would also think that omission would be caught during the rulebook editing phase. It seems pretty clear that feat cards were intended to re-balance power between the heroes and the OL in base Descent, and that's a great idea. However there is no demonstrated need for such a re-balancing in Road to Legend, so all the advantage goes to the heroes in RTL, at no expense. Therefore feat cards cry out for a house rule.

What we have been doing is following the Wilson ruling with the exception of giving out four feat cards (when a glyph is opened) during Copper level, three in Silver, two in Gold and one in the final battle. The hero opening the glyph always receives a feat card.

However after reading Corbon's comments, I must agree that a cost to the heroes is necessary, for balancing purposes. I like the idea of exchanging CP for the right to receive feat cards, when a glyph is opened. What I will propose to the people I play with (my players/my people...) is that the heroes either take 3 CP when a glyph is activated or x number of feat cards, depending on the campaign level (see above), their choice.

That seems better than an in-dungeon cost such as health points, coins, fatigue etc. In order to use that method of paying, I think the cards should already have been given a specific cost, in the same way that overlord cards each have a specific threat cost. Since this didn't happen, it would be pretty difficult to associate the appropriate cost with each feat card after the fact. I don't think each one is necessarily of equal value, any more than overlord or treachery cards are of equal value. So it seems too awkward to try to go that route. But I'd be interested to hear other ideas. Thank you for listening.

Inane idea that probably won't work here but...

Make it like a treasure chest for Feats. Each time someone trips a glyph, roll 4 black power dice. For each surge, you get 1 Feat card, Heroes decide who gets it.

I do not see how making a feat card for each hero (four in total) cost 3 conquest will ever be balanced. I mean I know there are some very strong feat cards but there are also some really bad ones. Range +8 on next attack for 3 xp? Really? That sounds very harsh and I would expect after the newness of the feat cards wares off your heroes will not be picking them very often.

Thought of the day.

If you gave your heroes the ability to trade in 3 xp for a feat card at ANY time would they do it?

Ok, true, Granor... I like Big Remy's idea of rolling four power dice when the glyph is activated, and then allowing the heroes the OPTION to take feat cards up to the number of surges rolled. (Or at least that is how I would apply Big Remy's idea....I shouldn't imply that was how he stated it.) That adds randomness and drama, and makes it non-automatic. I will probably use that idea. However I still think there needs to be a cost, to the heroes.

Maybe a proposal such as this... When a glyph is activated, roll four power dice. If no surges are rolled, you're done....no feat cards. You get 3 CP. But if you do roll surges, you have the right to take up to that many feat cards, but still with a maximum of four in Copper, three in Silver, two in Gold and one in final battle. If you do elect to take feat cards, you pay 1 CP per feat card. If you roll four surges in Copper, congratulations....take four feat cards, in exchange for 3 CP, if you like. Or take 3 CP, and forget the feat cards. You have to make the choice BEFORE you draw the feat card(s). You can't look at the card, then decide if it's worth the CP or not. If you elect to take, for example, one feat card (after having rolled at least one surge), you then draw one card and get two CP. Anyway, I kind of like that idea, so far. This has been a productive discussion. Thanks for the ideas, guys!

Are you saying one feat card would cost one conquest token? Doesn't that make the feat cards cost 4xp total? Are you not just extracting one xp from each hero instead of 3 from one hero? It would seem your idea makes the feat cards more expensive. Was this your intention?

Hmm...oops, you're right. No, that was not my intention. I failed to make the translation from CP back to XP in this case. Thanks for pointing that out, that won't work. I'll have to take this back to the drawing board.

Schmiegel said:

Pretty much what I meant.

I don't think Feat cards should cost anything, let alone XP. The other option I thought of, but it flies contrary to the rules, is to make it part of opening a chest. So for surges, you would normally get in Copper 50 gold and a potion. Make it 50 gold and a potion OR 50 gold and a Feat card.

I sadly do not have ToI yet, so these are random thoughts about them. I personally will probably try KevinW's recommendation at least once to see how it works, or if a FAQ comes out with something that first before I make a House Rule, since I tend to not use them.

II think it is too strong to give feats witout any drawback. We have already run 2 campaigns with feats. In the first, the OL gave up at the end of copper, and in the second, the OL is about to give up. Instead of costing XP, I'd rather have feats be optionnal and give XP to the OL when picked(not sure how much they should give though).

You may be onto something there. Or if you wanted to get fancy....... you could dedicate a special XP track for the OL, "funded" only by the heroes' purchase of feat cards. Call that TP (for Treachery Points) instead of XP, to differentiate it from the rest of the Overlord's XP. Say the OL's Avatar was The Titan, and treachery points in the monster category cost 10 XP apiece. Let the Overlord spend his "TP" bank strictly on (additional) treachery upgrades, at the same price as is listed on the Avatar card. In this example a red treachery upgrade would cost 10 TP. Each feat card purchased by the heroes would cost them 1 TP, that is it would earn the Overlord 1 TP, which he could eventually spend on a treachery upgrade during a "bonus round" of the Overlord upgrade phase. The heroes would still get their 3 CP when they activate a glyph, but the Overlord would get x TP, where x = the number of feat cards the heroes acquired.

Just brainstorming here. I'd like to hear thoughts on the following idea.

When a hero activates a glyph the party gains a number of feat cards equal to:

• Copper - the number of towns that have been razed
• Silver - half the number of towns that have been razed (round up)
• Gold - one third the number of towns that have been razed (round up)

The numbers above would also define the hand limit for feat cards at each campaign level.

The thought is to make feat cards a balancing factor. There might be a better variable to hang it on than # of razed towns, though.

Thoughts?

Feats are actually a VERY good balancing aspect for Road to Legend. I've been running a Road to Legend game and despite the feats, I'm still winning out against the PC's. With a few house rules feats can be moderated, but give the PC's a needed edge when the chips are down. Often times a smart Overlord can overpower the PC's with spawns and monsters and super attacks that turn player characters to pulp. The feats can buy PC's a turn to get things done (Like the card that kills off the Overlord's threat), or save a character at a pivatal time (When fighting a boss monster or being overwealmed by spawns). Anyway here is how I do feats fair and true.

1. Every character starts with 1 feat at the start of the campaign

2. Every Glyph gives the person who activates the glyph 1 feat (2 for Worldwalker)

3. When the PC's completely explore a dungeon (in other words kill the Dungeon Boss and exit by the normal route) they all get 1 feat draw.

4. The number of feats are limited. The feat deck only is reshuffled at the start of silver and gold. If all the feats in a deck are drawn no more can be taken till the next campaign change.

5. The player characters LOSE all feats when they fight the overlord battle (due to balance issues). The only exception is Worldwalker, who may keep a hand of two feats for the final battle (otherwise her ability becomes useless).

I just thought of a great idea. Perhaps a bit too OL powered but the players get to decide when to give the OL the bonus.

Deal out the feat cards and use them exactly as kevin specified. Then add this into the mix: Whenever a player uses a feat, the OL gets 1 conquest token. This way players will get all the feat options but the OL gets something out of when they use them. I'd probably keep the 'lose all feats at the end of a dungeon' aspect also just to keep them from using 1 or 2 feats over and over again.

Another idea would be to instead of giving the OL 1 conquest token per use have to pay some sort of GP cost, like 100.

imho it's not good idea

feat cards are to balance the game (OL was too powerfull)

Slimak said:

In the WoD and AoD quests, yes, probably. In RtL, not at all.

Inexperienced heroes complain of powerful OL, but thats because Hero play is very punishing of mistakes and inexperienced players will make mistakes - on the mapboard even if they are veteran Descent dungeoneers. This is merely aggravated because Bronze is the OL's strongest period.

Playing both sides, I am of the view that RtL is tightly balanced, but overall favours the heroes marginally. Thats before ToI.

Darkfire14 said:

This suggestion seems to basically eliminate feats from RTL.

Do your heroes run from dungeons in copper? Mine run the first level of the first dungeon. Then on the second level send one hero in to collect as much as possible with everyone else running. Once that hero is dead (one turn usually) they go to the next dungeon and do the same thing. Once they have done this 2 times they have gold and some equipment while I have gotten very little XP (read under 25).

I only mention this because it would reduce your #3 at copper level. Now I agree that finishing a dungeon should have a bigger award but it seems to me you are basically removing feats from copper as the heroes will get 12 - 20 cards total. Considering they will start with 4 instead of 16 with Kevin's rule (your #1 you mentioned)

Once you get to silver the heroes will start to collect feat cards getting around 28 cards total depending on the team mix because of your #4. Now this would act somewhat normal but I think feat cards become far less important as the monsters get stronger.

In gold the heroes will collect around 28 again depending on mix but now the deck holds far more useless cards than it did before so they will be getting fewer useful tactical choices.

I am all for balancing the feats and I do think they have pushed the game a little far but I love the mechanic and do not what to regulate it down to a rarity.

p.s. I am interested in the super attacks you are talking about. I need some help with my curent campain.