I'm making some Descent components, and would appreciate knowing:

1) how big (i.e., 1x1, 1x2, etc.) the Wendigo and Lava Beetle are. Also, are Crushing Walls 3 squares wide? How many of these walls come in a box?

2) how many of the expansion monsters (normals and masters) come in a box. Here is the list of expansion monsters:

Shade
Dark Priest
Ferrox
Golem
Ice Wyrm
Kobold
Lava Beetle
Medusa
Blood Ape
Troll
Chaos Beast
Wendigo
Deep Elf

Thanks!

--p. joe

1) Wendigos are 1x2. Beetles are 1x1. I believe that all crushing walls are 2 squares wide, and that there are 3 of them.

2) I can tell you, but I'd just be getting my info from this site-

http://www.descentinthedark.com/

Look under the the headings for each expansion.

-pw

phelanward said:

If he wants to use these components he should buy the expansions. No buy, no use. Don't have to use the same figures/coomponents, but need to have paid the price to use FFG's intellectual property.

Thanks so much!

p.

Corbon said:

I agree completely with your sentiment, although it's worth noting that FFG has in the past consented to allow digital versions of their games to be set up and played, including scanned images of tiles and tokens and representations of plastic bits (I'm thinking specifically of TI3) with the caveat that none of the card text be made available online. In their view, as long as card text is not being shared, people still need to buy the game/expansions to properly play with them.

This doesn't mean that I condone making proxies of monsters and such like the OP apparently is, mind you. I personally would agree that's crossing a line and I would refuse to play with someone who wanted to use such fake components in place of the real expansion. I'm just saying FFG has shown themselves to be complacent as long as card text isn't being shared.

*coughcough*

And presumably also as long as the quests aren't being shared, in Descent's case, since they obviously went to the lengths of deleting quest pages from the online pdfs.

I don't see what's wrong with making your own proxies of miniatures. Buying any product means you're paying for the labor/materials and effort poured into making this product. If he's dedicated enough to create these miniatures on his own, then why shouldn't he? It would be the fruit of his own labor, not to mention that he still spends resources on getting the materials needed to make them.

zealot12 said:

When you buy a product, you're paying for BOTH the cost of manufacturing the product (the physical property) AND the cost of designing the product (the intellectual property). It takes time and effort to invent (and, hopefully, test and revise) the rules and the cards and so forth, and I, for one, think that the designers deserve to be paid for their labor, just like everyone else.

The fact that he had to post here asking questions about the game shows that he's not producing his own original game from scratch, he's trying to build his own physical property while utilizing FFG's intellectual property. If the purpose of that is just to avoid the purchase cost, then I think it's entirely reasonable to take moral issue with that. The only real difference between that and another board game publisher deciding to manufacture and sell their own copies of Descent using FFG's rules is scale.

Of course, none of the information he's asked for in this thread is actually secret - FFG realizes that such information is used by fans to support and add value to their product, as well as by people to try to steal it, and that it's nearly impossible to contain in any case, and has chosen (wisely, in my opinion) to allow it to propogate. It's incorporated into avianfoo's WART tileset for Descent quest editing, for example. So it's not like he couldn't have found this information somewhere else, or obtained it under false pretenses without raising suspicion, regardless of his ultimate plan for it.

zealot12 said:

He isn't asking for materials (I did say you didn't need to use the same figures, I have no problem with proxies), he's asking for information . That information belongs to FFG and he doesn't appeared to have paid for it, or he wouldn't need to ask. It is fairly clear from the information requested that he is trying to produce a whole set, not just a few replacements for lost or damaged figures etc.

The information might actually be publicly available, but AFAIK it hasn't actually been released by FFG, just available as a by-product of fan support items.

It is not only a bit cheeky to come on to FFGs own forum and ask for information to help avoid having to pay for FFGs product, it also puts at risk good things for the rest of us. FFG puts their rules on pdf available for free to everyone. That's a great service, but it does make it easier for people to pirate their games (it is still not easy as card information etc is still required, but even that is available in many cases now from public databases).

i'm agreed with you Corbon of all point. but i will not so worry about it, because he have started somethings' he will be never able to finish.

FFg'Descent game is so HUGE, even the base box! he have to made so much and complicated stuff(the dice, there is no dice you can use for descent if you dont made it all of your own) the board(all piece of it) the cards, the heroes.

the only way he can really play a home made descent is using some little stone he will call "Sir valdir" the red dama pieces to make master monster and sh*tty drawn board.

maybe he will have enough pacient to made all characters, dice and card, but if he wants to make a really good job, at the end he'll spend more money to get the tools and the basic stuff(gum or wood or whatever) instead of purchase the original game

maybes he is making detailed resin bases for a set he is about to get and needs to know how many? im not really sure how you could play the expansions without buying them? maybes he just wants more bad guys without having to shell out loads of cash? although even though FFG is expensive its probably cheaper to buy an expansion then buy wargaming miniatures for all these pieces.

also, i dont think any of those creatures are IP of FFG, they are pretty basic bad guys that appear all over the place. not defending the blatant rip but if the information is there and other figures are available then maybes FFG should press harder on people publishing monster stats online?

zealot12 said:

He does spend resources to make the proxies, but he isn't paying FFG. Imagine for a moment that you sat down and designed you own board game, which you then went to the effort of having produced professionally, including plastic figures and specialty dice so you could sell it and hopefully put food on your own table with the profits. Then you found out that people were printing out paper standups of the figures, stickers to put on conventional dice and mock ups of the board and other cardboard components so that they could play your game without paying for it by using the online pdf of the rules you so thoughtfully put online for your consumers. Would you be satisfied with the knowledge that these people still had to pay SOMEONE for the paper and/or photocopying costs? Even though the price they paid was well below what you had already decided was fair value for your time and effort (and production costs?) Not to mention the fact that not a single penny of the money they paid is actually coming to you?

ironman said:

Most of them are pretty generic, admittedly. Some of them are even pretty obviously taken from other fantasy gaming products (deep elves, anyone?) However, the specific creatures are still FFG's IP. FFG didn't call their deep elves "drow" because that would be infringing on WotC's IP. Anyone with a lick of experience in gaming can see the similarities, and drow have been part of the D&D franchise for so long that no one could reasonably claim the similarities were accidental. Still, changing the name and mixing up a few subtle details can be enough to make your own claim. Is that what the OP was doing? Making his own creatures that are very similar to Descent's figures? I doubt it, personally.

The idea of a wild, rampaging ape that jumps around and hits things with its fists is hardly a unique concept, agreed. A "Blood Ape" which has a given physical description and adheres to specific mechanical attributes as described in the AoD rulebook, however, is still FFG's published IP. And there are a few creatures in this game that are fairly original, I think. Ferrox, for example. Also, FFG's take on the wendigo is unlike any other I can think of. The name might not have been their idea, but most everything else is.

i do agree the monsters do have their own descent twists to them, the ferrox is something im not sure ive hear of before, but the picture does look a lot like blanka from street fighter.

ironman said:

LOL. Very true. I think that's mostly because they chose a green base colour more than anything else, though. =P

From the fluff, ferrox are the result of an arcane effort to combine razorwings and humans, and you can see a bit of the razorwing element in the nose and the vestigal "wings" under their arms. Their bloodlust gives them something of a vampire feel, too.