Does anyone else feel that Orks take too much of a penalty on their starting characteristics? Compared to Humans or Kroot (whose starting characteristics balance out), they are down a total of 40 points.

This puts them at a severe disadvantage at succeeding on tests. Being nigh-invulnerable is nice, but it hardly worth being almost completely ineffectual at everything else. Is there some balancing factor that I'm missing? Or are Ork Freebooters merely intended at comic relief?

The Xeno careers are not intended to be 'balanced'. They're fluffy. Orks are not intelligent, they are cunning. Orks generally can't shoot worth a **** because they'd much rather get into the thick of combat.

I really don't think the Characteristic losses are going to be felt all that much compared to the sheer combat power of an Ork. Orks made for combat are really powerful in that element, and outside of it... well, tell why they are not just fighting everything again?

As a side note, I don't currently allow Ork PCs in my game because I see them as being too combat focused. OTOH, I'd have little objection to a player playing a Kroot. So I guess I'm just racist against the Greenies.

You're not really missing anything. It is like complaining about how your D&D barbarian sucks at all skill tests.

Orks are, by definition, combat focused. Their whole lives, their whole beings, are focused on combat, prefferably of the close variety.

Not trying to sound mean, but I'm not really sure what else you were expecting from them. Combat monsters, sucky at...well almost everything else.

Combat Focused? Orks can't hit the side of a barn. All the ballistic talents in the Freebooter career are all but useless due to the 15 point hit they take on Ballistics Skill.

Sure if they can get into close combat they are a force to be reckoned with. Even then they are still going to have lower combat stats than a human with a judiciously chosen origin path. Also one parry with a power weapon and the Ork might effectively be out of the fight even if they do take a while to kill.

Sure in D&D Barbarians are big and dumb, but they don't take a penalty on the majority of their stats. Orks are dumb, blind, weak-willed, crude, clumsy, and usually don't point the gun the right way round. In social situations even with other Orks, the Peer talent just makes up for the deficit in their Fellowship. They can't do anything in Starship combat (maybe you could strap him to the prow for ramming actions).

Moribund said:

That's pretty much orks, defined.

Giving them a poor BS was a necessity, considering all the sources that claim they carry guns just to hear the pretty noises when they go off.

I'm lost at why you think Orks ought to be gods when 25 years worth of rules and fluff paint them exactly as you describe. Don't like how FF wrote up Orks? Take it up with GW, I'm sure your arguments will get more traction.

Squats were eaten by 'nids, There are no female Space Marines, and no, we will never see Space Skaven.

Moribund said:

phantomoftruth said:

Yeah but we have room for Squats and Space Skaven.

But I agree, orks are orks. They are Combat Driven, no one said they had to be good shots, just that they like to shoot.

Want to be a better shot, blow your XP on BS advances. If using the point allocation system, put all your points into BS. But when that ork charges you, while the void master, arch militant and rogue trader are laying down covering fire, and you will see COMBAT FOCUSES!

I don't expect Orks to be gods, nor do I expect them to be good at everything. I expect them to be playable, as in this is a role-playing game and the game is hindered if some characters are unable to meaningfully contribute. As it is Orks are good at almost nothing. Even in what Orks supposedly excel they aren't very special about, a Deathworlder is as strong as the typical ork. Shouldn't Orks, innately psychic, immune to corruption, and all-but-fearless have a higher Willpower than the typical human? And as a Freebooter aren't you a member of the Flash Gitz, superior in many ways to the teeming masses of Ork-kind? Shouldn't your characteristics reflect that?

My main complaint with Orks as characters is that there seems to be only one valid path of advancement for an Ork character, close combat. Anything else is woefully suboptimal due to their characteristic penalties. Sure I can buy Ballistic Skill Advances, but even if I maximize that I'm still a worse shot than a Rank 1 character with the Stubjack origin. I don't expect them to have as many options as humans, after all there is only one career path, but even so there are more real, playable choices in every other career presented so far. Wouldn't it be nice if playing a Mekboy or Painboy didn't mean taking a -10 penalty on the skill that you're supposedly a savant at?

Maybe these stats do reflect the typical Ork, but Ork Explorers are not typical Orks by any stretch of the imagination. As Explorers they are the peers of Rogue Traders, Navigators, and Astropath Transcendents, surely some liberties can be taken to make them suit that rarified position, and make them fun to play.

Orks have a horrible Willpower because they are easily distracted from anything but getting into a fight. Look at all the times the Eldar have manipulated them into fighting one of their enemies for them. They get Jaded and Resistance (Fear) at Rank 3, at which point they're immune to pretty much anything short of a greater daemon erupting out of the Warp in front of them. An Ork innately knows that his best chance at surviving is when he's in a mob of boyz, all shooting and fighting together. This is why they have Mob Rule, and Da Nekst Best Fing.

IMHO they shouldnt even be player characters.

But they are available. So ask the GM for some elite advances (no the irony of me saying that does not elude me).

I am sorry you are displeased wth them, but I am sure the reason a rogue trader "hires" a ork isnt for anything other then its combat skills in close quarters.

"Sir, the pirates have board deck three."

"Hmmm. Let loose the Grizh-Nak"

Moribund said:

Easy solution: take away unnatural toughness and give the freebooter higher base stats to compensate. And rename them humans while you're at it.

I dont really know about Orks, I only know that they (at least GW's 40k Orks) are terrible at shooting, loud, cheap, and hard-to-kill (plus quite good in Melee).

And.. One thing that I know about RPG (at least during these 11 wonderful years of gaming) is "if you dont like it, dont use it. Leave it, or Live with it". Maybe you can ask the GM to 'bend the rules'. If the GM disagree, find another GM (or gaming group).

Unnatural Toughness is quite good actually..

I dunno if I'd be tempted to give the Ork anything extra to their already massive amounts of resistance to fairly much everything (void, cold, heat, physical damage, wounds etc) that would kill two humans combined. Sure, they've got the brain of a pea and nil willpower, but no ones going to notice a mad ork anyway and they dont take ANY corruption points... literally the Ork will live when the geller fields go down and turn the crew into goo. They do make the perfect species/class combination for very younger players new to RPG's in terms of survivability so they'll live long enough to do something and for other people that are basically- complete idiots that don't contribute anything to a game aside from beating things to death and randomly doing inappropriate/irrational things for no particular reason.

Mr Ork is not a contributing member to human society... or any society really. He's essentially a huge, annoying f**kwit

I think Orks have been well stated. Yep they are stupid, clumsy, crude, etc. which they should be fluff wise. Being almost immortal and devastating at close range is what they should be to, and they are. If you complain about your ork being bad at shooting, go speak with spme table top ork players, who only count on number to hit sometimes, just waiting to be at assault range...

If you want to give some range to your ork give him a burna, no BS roll, still close range but not close combat. And if you don't like ork as they are (at least hilarious) then don't use them. I only have one more thing to say :

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH ! (I am an ork fan)

Plus, where does it say that Orks only use Orcish gear? The thought of an Orc with a Poweraxe for example is a frightening one. The only thing missing is a dedicated close combat AT for the Orc to use.

But only play an Orc if you truly love to. Yes they make the worst Explorators but consider and shudder at the thought of having an Ork Mekboy running the machinery. First thing first, time to repaint the vessel and then I have a few small improvements to make....

Sister Callidia said:

Repaint the vessel? You're not using a red paint rob already? Hmmm...

I'd be even more concerned with a Painboy as the ship's chirurgeon.

HappyDaze said:

LOL, "No, I am alright, really. That? No, it's nothing, really. Oh, btw, does anyone happen to know if anyone in the Astropathic choir has any healing powers?"

Alex

Boss Nadsmasha iz kunnin, 'e iz! 'E gotz tha umie doks tat...tat....PAINTIN' 'is trigga finga red so wot 'e getz shootier an wotzat!

WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

That is an ork. If you are expecting haiku and civilized discussion of the subtle complexity of different teas then you clearly have not been paying attention. Crappy BS is just fine: The important part is that there is a loud exciting whooshy-bangety sound, preferably with a big explosion too! Dubious WILL backed up with a healthy dose of talents and traits that grant bonuses under certain situations (and outright immunity in some cases!) is likewise appropriate to an Ork, since they are stubborn and single minded to shockingly inappropriate degrees but..... Oooh! Shiny! FEL is for wussy 'umies. I iz bigga, so I'z da boss! Seneshal training? Why? Ow ard iz it ta' kount teef? One, two, free, lotz.... youse see? An if yer needin' more teef an whatnot, just gobsmak dem an getz more teef, see?

'Umie-Dok (Medicae) trainin' is fer wimpy 'Umies. Gotz an arm off? Jus' git a powah-riveta from tha stuffy git in tha ere-we-go-red robe an' makes it go bang-bang-bang til tha arm stopz fallin' off, den getz bak ta' krumpin'!

Also, low stats are not necissarily a BAD thing if they are appropriately low. Nor is it always a disadvantage if you set the conditions well enough. Want to make good use of an Ork crewman in social brinksmanship? It can be done! Say you have a rival that is up to something that requires some sort of alliance with you, but you are more interested in putting them off their game for a while. You agree to the initial proposal to meet up and discuss terms for the proposal, but since you are unavoidably tied up in prior obligations you will be sending a member of your entourage ahead to begin laying the groundwork for the deal. If your rival's House can provide suitable hospitality to your servant until you can arrive to formalize the details it would go along way to solidifying your favour, or so your missive strongly implies. Now stuff your Ork crewman into whatever passes for finery that you can drape around their brutish frame and send your "envoy" on his way... Chances are good that your rival is now deeply offended and making decisions out of anger instead of with a clear head or they sucked up their pride and dignity to play "gracious host" to an Ork (with all the social damage that goes hand-in-hand with such absurdity when word gets out!). Either way, you come out ahead!

If you are not laughing while reading this you need to not play an ork.

ZillaPrime said:

Or the ork envoy disembarks and is gunned down by a squad of surprised guards.

Peacekeeper_b said:

A pair of pliers and a staple gun should be sufficient to patch an Ork up after such an onslaught.

My recommendation is that any situation where you have to burn a Fate Point to allow an Ork to survive a fatal wound, then it should be described that the Ork did take the fatal wound... it just hasn't killed him yet. If the attack would decapitate the Ork, then he's decapitated... and within the hour, he might die if his head isn't stapled back onto his body (or another Ork body) within that time.

ZillaPrime said:

Excellent post mate.

Peacekeeper_b said:

They had better be guards with good weapons... or they will just annoy the ork.

Plus I really wanted an excuse to attack my rival...

One of our groups daughters wanted to play so we let her play an ork as we thought she'd have fun.And while she had a great time she did quickly point out some of the things you did mori.We in the end explained(reasoned,begged as applicable)that were as we were all experienced human veterans she was just a newbie ork fresh from the pod(or what ever orks come from) So even though we supposedly had the same rank ie 5000xp she in fact had none except the 500 we gave her to start with.This seemed to placate her:) She even said "so im like dark heresy lvl starter" Which made me think that 11 year old girls are a lot smarter than a 37 year old man . So if you just imagine that you arent in fact a peer of orks unlike humans who are at a higher lvl in their society,and just a fresh ork young un then maybe that'll work better.

I'm not sure if it's intended or not but reading some of the RT material I get the feeling that Orks are intended to as some form of Dark Age of Technology era anti-chaos bio weapon that got out of control. I mean:

1. Orks speak a form of Low Gothic as a genetically programed language (this may just be a editing mistake thought).

2. Orks gain no corruption points.

3. According to Edge of the Abyss techy starts to fail around the Praecursor. I wonder if Ork Tech isn't some specially designed stuff that makes use of the Orks Psychic abilities to keep functioning when Chaos is trying to turn out the lights.

4. With lousy shooting skills and limited organizational ability a large scale sentient empire should be able to keep the Orks contained. Sure they might form into a WAAAAAGH! every now and again, but those are not long lasting organizations.

So if it's the end of the Dark Age of Technology, your society is in collapse and it seems like the human race is about to get eaten what do you do? Well first you create replicable STC devices that can be replicated even if most knowledge is lost. Second you seed a bunch of planets with Orks to create a buffer between the, relatively limited, forces of Chaos.

Of course since that Ork is shedding spores that can give rise to an infestation everywhere he goes, the best thing to do with an Ork PC is kill it then bring it flamers to cleanse the ground where it stood.