My friend and I just played our first game of Tide of Iron and the game went (pretty) smoothly, but we came to a standstill when it came to dealing with the 'Assault' action. I have more than a couple of questions to ask about this particular action.

1. It doesn't quite say in the rules; can units in Op Fire mode participate in Assaults if they are adjacent to the target unit? For example, an American squad moves up to a German squad to perform an Assault. Adjacent to this German squad is an American Squad in Op Fire. Could this unit contribute its fire power to the assault?

2. When a squad is in close range combat, is the attack always considered an Assault? I.e., is it possible for a squad to simply use Concentrated Fire at close range or does the squad have to perform an Assault? (Basically is it mandatory for a squad to Assault an adjacent enemy squad?)

3. Another question, let's say I perform an Assault with one of my squads. Can other friendly squads NOT adjacent to the enemy target add firepower into the Assault from a distance? Or do units supporting an Assault have to be adjacent to the enemy target?

4. Last question, I promise! If a flamethrower unit is supporting a squad in an Assault action, does the +2 firepower get halved? I ask this because it states that supporting units add only half of their firepower and technically the +2 firepower is added from a supporting unit.

Thank you all in advance!

Monboisse said:

You're right that there is no example for this and I guess in general I would say the answer is no. I think that even if your group says that yes it can, you have to keep in mind that the squad will be fatigued at the end of the assault action (even if it's a machine gun squad).

Monboisse said:

No, you can perform a normal concentrated attack from an adjacent hex.

Monboisse said:

As per the rules on page 33, Up to two (no more than that) squads in adjacent hexes can contribute half fire power, even if they are fatigued. If they are pinned or disrupted they can not.... and as I said above, if they're are in op-fire I would say that they could not.

Monboisse said:

Not sure I quite understand what you're asking here but here's the logic of an assault with a supporting squad with the flamethrower specialization. Assaulting squad has 4 Regular Infantry so a firepower of 4, Supporting flame squad has 4 Regular Infantry so it's 4 + 2 for attacking an adjacent hex, at half firepower since it's supporting so it adds 3 firepower to the assaulting squads 4 for a total of 7. Also because the flamesquad is involved it reduces the cover over the squads in the target hex by -5. So if the target hex is wooded for example and the target squad is 4 regular infantry, you're first roll would be 7 black dice scoring hits on 4,5,6. No red dice are rolled because there's no cover thanks to the flame squad. Then you would roll 4 black dice for how much damage the defenders do to the assaulters also scoring hits on a 4,5,6.

Hopefully that helps.

Monboisse said:

On pages 12 and 29, it is clearly stated that Op-Fire units only activate if the enemy moves and only supports units in an Op-Fire attack.

I'm going to jump right into your topic because it's related...

Can I defent myself during an assault attack with support from an adjacent tank? The rules clearly specify that I can use up to two friendly units, including light vehicles, but says nothing on tanks. Is that because I'm not allowed to use them? Is the attacker allowed to use a tank to support his assault?

Also, my interpretation of the rules on page 33 is that if I assault a hex with a flamethrower unit of regular infantry, they have 4+2 attack dice, and that if I support the assault with another one, exactly the same, that unit ads 2 in firepower (for half it's regular attack dice) and then adds an extra +2.

Normally whenever my squads have bonuses and are subjected to halving firepower, I calculate the squads firepower, include any special bonuses, and then halve all that.

Grindcrusher said:

The attacker can get support from adjacent squads (not tanks) to attack (p.33 1st paragraph " the active squad, and any supporting squads ) The defender gets no support. Tanks (heavy vehicles) are not involved as the attacker (squads only) or defender (as assaults "may not attack a hex containing a heavy vehicle").

Grindcrusher said:

Since longagoigo covered the first part I'll answer the second. Your interpretation is not quite accurate. You should do the same thing you normally do, if you assault a hex with a flame squad and support the assult with another flame squad. So assaulting squad is figures_firepower + 2, support squad is (figures_firepower + 2)/2. Now that being said the flame squads effect on cover is cumulative since that effect is a feature of attacking an adjacent hex so it would be a combined -10 to cover.

longagoigo said:

In this particular case I had two shermans in an adjacent hex to the one I was defending... the attacker assaulted with a PzKpfw IV and a light vehicle and a squad. The squad being the "main assaulter".

So then all tanks in my example would not have been eligible for the assault?

Grindcrusher said:

Light vehicles can only be involved in the defense (you can assault a hex that contains light vehicles, but not heavy ones [tanks]).

So the attacker could not support the assault with the Panzer IV or the Half-Track. Also keep in mind that squads with the heavy weapon trait (machine guns and mortars) can not assault or support an assault.

Review the Assault Attacks rules on page 33 for more information.

sloejack said:

I disagree. The rules governing assaults clearly states that the assault gains +2 firepower for each flamethrower squard involved. In its own paragraph even.

This leads to a very nasty calculation. The Leading Squad(4 inf.flame) adds 6 firepower, and the Supporting Squad(4 inf.flame) adds 6/2, and then each flamethrower adds +2, for a grand total of 13.

This sounds a bit too much though. I would interpret the paragraph with the flamethrower +2, as though we are supposed to start calculating using only the models base firepower(4 inf) and then adding the +2 for each flamethrower after that. This gives the following calculation: Leading Squad(4 inf.) adds 4, Supporting Squad(4 inf) adds 2, two flamethrowers adds 4, for at total of 10. Still a lot of dice.

Also: The rules for assaults does not exempt units in OP-fire from being able to support an assault. The only Squads not able to support an assault are Squads with the Heavy weapons trait, and units that are either pinned or disrupted.

Thus I would say that the unit in OP-fire can support an assault.

Also In : Using multiple flamethrowers does not provide more than -5 cover to the defender. The rules state that the -5 cover is provided if Any flamethrowers are participating.

Of course the assault rules does not seem to fit together with the rest of the rules. I will still say that they were grafted onto the rules late in the process.

Hefsgaard said:

I'll second that opinion.

Hefsgaard said:

I take exception to your use of 'only' in The only squads. If they haven't moved, then Op-fire units can't be involved, per the rules on page 32. It doesn't say in the rules that there is an exception for Assaults. Of the squads that could support an assault, which is an action where the enemy doesn't move, there are additional exceptions. Those exceptions are to the basic rules for the use of fresh units in supporting attacks. Op-fire units are excluded before one gets to those additional exceptions. They aren't mentioned, because they don't need to be mentioned. Op-fire attacks and supporting attacks are restricted for attacks against an enemy that moves. That is one of the trade offs of putting units into op-fire.

I disagree. The rules governing assaults clearly states that the assault gains +2 firepower for each flamethrower squard involved. In its own paragraph even.

True, it does explicitely state this but I believe that based on the wording that the comment regarding flamethrower assaults is a reminder that flamethrowers have the Flaming Death trait which adds +2 firepower to adjacent hex attacks. It makes no logical sense for an adjacent unit to get an additional +2 (for a total of +4) when attacking an adjacent hex that they couldn't get for making the same attack individually.

The part which I had not concidered was where the +2 applies. Based on the way it is written it does add some confusion that could be resolved depending on how you choose to determine the assault firepower. If it's added as part of calculating a squads firepower, then I would say that it would be halved as is the normal rule. If however it's added to the combined firepower total then it would have the net effect (in the example) of adding 1 additional die to the firepower.

My group plays it adding the +2 to the squads firepower and would therefore halve it if the flame squad was supporting.

As for the unit in op fire supportingand assault, I don't know. I think that their action was to set up for op-fire and that they would not be available as longagoigo mentions. However, there's actually nothing on page 11 or 32 to support this so I can see how a squad set in op-fire could support an assault. The squad would be fatigued as per step 11 of the Assault rules. Hard to imagine a scenario where I would have a squad in op-fire in an adjacent hex to one I would be assaulting but that's not the point.

As per the rule regarding cover I was incorrect, which oddly enough supports the logic of the flame squad(s) not getting +2 twice to their firepower.

As for the unit in op fire supportingand assault, I don't know. I think that their action was to set up for op-fire and that they would not be available as longagoigo mentions. However, there's actually nothing on page 11 or 32 to support this so I can see how a squad set in op-fire could support an assault. The squad would be fatigued as per step 11 of the Assault rules. Hard to imagine a scenario where I would have a squad in op-fire in an adjacent hex to one I would be assaulting but that's not the point.

A father tells his son that he can't take the car out on Saturday night. Sunday morning the son and the car aren't there. When the boy comes home he says, 'You didn't say my friend couldn't take the car.' The use of op-fire units is mentioned in multiple places. To say it can be used in Assault because it isn't mentioned, as not being able to be used, is as disingenious as the sons argument that the father didn't say his friend couldn't take the car.

While I agree that it's not likely in the spirit, every good gamer will look for something to exploit to their benefit if they can get away with it. In a game like this when so much is explicitly written into the rules about what a unit can not do, anything that isn't called out becomes fair game, at least for debate.

I think for my own group we would likely not allow the unit in op fire to support. Each group will have to figure it out for themselves though I caution that sometimes when you make these decisions that seem to benefit you in the short term, they tend to come back and haunt you later... especially if it was too effective in its use. I suspect that were there a ToI tournament at a con or something of that sort a judge would have to make some sort of ruling for all but in true ToI toolbox fashion when playing at home, play the way that makes it the most fun for your group.

I disagree that because it isn't explicitly stated in the rules regarding assaults that OP fire units cannot participate then you should be allowed to use them. Some common sense regarding the OP fire status should take precedence. If anything the unit in OP fire is placed as such in order to provide cover for the units around them and help this way for their action. The OP fire unit is placed as such to possibly prevent or break up a counterattack once the innitial assault is finished.

Once the unit is in OP fire it stays that way unless affected by a card I would say.

Hi!

Maybe somebody write a mail to FFG and write the answer in this Forum

The rule support is very fast! I tried it two times.

Greetings

Lynyrd said:

Maybe somebody write a mail to FFG and write the answer in this Forum

Killjoy!

So it makes more sense to have a unit Set OP-fire, Fire in Op-fire, and Then support an assault, that for it to be able to support the same assault before it had fired? Guess time travles weirdly.