(Sorry for the wall of text. In short: Do you have any good tips to make our first Descent time even more amazing? )

Finally gave in to the lure of Descent and ordered Vanilla box. I'm planning to introduce the game to my group of gamer friends in the near future. The group are (very) experienced roleplaying game / boardgame players, who sometimes are known to be quite critical towards new things. Our favourite games are Battlestar Galactica, War of the Ring, Last Night on Earth, Small World and Warmachine/Hordes and we also previously played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3ed a bit (and over a hundred other roleplaying- and boardgames in the past). There is five of us in the group (OL+four heroes) and I'll be OL at least for now.

Nowadays there's just not enough time for a real roleplaying game campaign, so I got Descent to sort of a scratch our campaign itch. My plan is now get everyone comfortable with the game rules with one or two games of the Vanilla and then jump right in the deep end with either Road to Legend / Sea of Blood with preferably custom created characters (are they viable???).

I know that Descent is a boardgame and should not be even thought to be much of a RPG. I've been "selling" the idea of Descent to the group as "more complex fantasy version of Last Night on Earth, with a campaign where the characters evolve" or "boardgame version of Diablo. With a campaign!". The thing is that I don't completely know what to expect and just have to hope I will get people hooked enough to get through a long campaign cycle I'd love to try. If I just have time my plan is to play solo and get comfy with the system before the first session.

I'd be very grateful if you have any tips, tricks, house rules, pointers, ideas or advice which would improve our first ever session and give us the premium Descent experience right out the box.

- Is the first basic box quest the best one to start with? (we will have OL + four players)

- Any good game aids to have with us?

- Any game breaking stupidities that got fixed in the expansions?

- How to get that good old D&D charm back with Descent? Is it even possible?

All the help is HIGHLY appreciated. Thanks.

We play more of the same game ! And i'm a roleplayer too, but usualy i dont put it inside board games exept for some megalomaniac laugh when i play the overlord

I dont have many tips, but i'd like to share them with you.

• Descent remember me the movie"conan the barbarian" for it's savage Background and the picture, so the few times i will act like that when i've read some flavuor text
• Descent it's full of flavuor text, when you draw a Rumors card, or read new plot or enter in a new dungeon level. i always read that text but my player usualy dont listen. Before start this game make sure your player are interested in this kind of stuff.
• I' dont like music during role play, but many people does, so you can search on the internet some "dungeon sound or music"
• This game introduce you one of the most classic fighting betwen good and evil. A powerfull Overlord who controls his minion with the power of th mind and use arcane sorcery to evocate traps, effect and monsters, and of course he plan to conquest the world. A group of occasionaly heroes, blessing by fortune or some silent god who want to kill the overlord to bring pace in the world. and during their travel gain a lot of money treasure and good reputations! (they are mortaal after, not some kind of good angel incarned, no they are savage, look at the first dot) So you can use this background to add details or stuff.

thats all, i hope you can gain some help from this tips

Jack and THE Hammer said:

This sound sooooo much like "my" group of players. The main problem is that even though all of us read and speak english fluently, reading it out loud doesn't work. What I've been doing with RPGs is translating the text in Finnish (our native language) and reading it out loud like that. It lets me control the amount of info and makes it more easily listeneable. Is there a lot of quest - related flavour texts in the game or are they more like card texts and such?

Thanks for great suggestions, I think I have to put together somekind of "best of dungeoncrawling" - soundtrack for our session

yes in fact i 've say "My players "

my suggestion is the follow: if you paly the basic Descent, it's very easy, the OL read the all adventure before and tranlsated the main part(probably 5/10 strings of word, no more) so he can set all and prepare for reading it in your native language. You have say all of you are good in english so this shold not be a problem

in case you are paly the advanced champain, The road to legend(the most rpg style expansion) the Ol can do the same for the first 3 dungeon card(or more if you are really quick to do a dungeon) and the first 5/6 rumors card

it's about the same things,

the only problem is if the Ol is someone who want to win at all cost, he can easly study all the map gain advantage on the others player acting like i've suggest.

so all of you must take according before starting the game.

Mordjinn said:

I know the feeling. I would recommend playing through the entire base game quest book before going on the RtL/SoB. Just to make sure you and your friends are familiar with all the little crazy questions that are likely to pop up during play. I would also recommend carefully reading the FAQ for some answers to sticky widgets. In particular, be aware that Beastmen and Skeletons (as well as a handful of weapons) have been altered since the base game release. It's entirely likely that the copy you ordered will have updated cards to reflect these changes, but compare your cards against the changes mentioned in the FAQ to make sure.

Also make note of the "one potion per turn" errata. It's not in the rulebook, but it's a big deal.

Mordjinn said:

You might be selling your friends a slightly inaccurate story there, but it's not completely off. LNoE, for example, is a highly thematic game. The victory conditions vary by the scenario and what the heroes are trying to do can greatly influence how a given game session plays out. In Descent, there's plenty of fluff text, but it's just there for atmosphere, it doesn't really change anything. The goal of almost every quest is to find and kill some big baddie. Usually, doing so as fast as possible is advised.

The game can and will scratch your itch for epic adventure and fantasy magic setting, but there's little if any room for role-playing, even compared to other boardgames of the genre. The heroes only "evolve" by spending money or drawing treasures from chests. At the start, the heores are fighting for their lives, near the end of each quest they'll be mopping up most monsters in one or two attacks. The OL needs to crush them early most times. It's not impossible for him to win later on, but he needs to have whittled away a lot of the heroes' conquest tokens before they get gold treasures.

Mordjinn said:

Honestly, just make sure you know the rules. Play the base game quests. Rotate who plays OL periodically, too, so that everyone gets experience on both sides of the fence. Maybe you should play OL for the first two or three quests to introduce the game, but be sure to mention the idea of rotating OLs early on. Once you get into the Advanced Campaign, one person will be stuck as OL for MONTHS. If everyone knows what they're doing it will still be great, but if not then one side or other will get ahead and stay there. In a game that can realistically run for two or three months, having one side in the lead since the second session is something of a bummer.

There are plenty of house rules floating around out there (check the forums and files section on BGG.) Generally, trying to make the game "more thematic" really means "the OL player gives up any chance of winning and just puts on a good show for the heroes." Which is fine, if you're fine with that, but it's not the way the game was designed to be played. It would require the OL to deliberately pass up opportunities, and some players don't like doing that.

Mordjinn said:

In the base game, all of the flavour is in the quest guide. There is A LOT of it that would need to be translated, but most of it is just setting the stage. There are certainly some parts that leak important hints to the heroes about what they need to do, but most if it is just fluff. Depending on how good your English is, you could probably translate it on the fly and get the same effect.

In the Advanced Campaign most of the (important) flavour text is on the cards (Rumours and Plots cards, specifically) both of which can be controlled by the OL player if you want to have jurisdiction over how to translate the fluff into Finnish. The Dungeon cards also have important text to be read, though it's mostly rules instead of flavour.

Mordjinn said:

Oops, forgot to address this part. Making your own characters is certainly possible, but it's a bit more involved than simply playing the game. FFG does offer a custom hero maker program, but it's greatly flawed. It would be better to check out the hero generator made by Antistone (which can be found in the Home Brews subforum up above.) It's better balanced in terms of spending points, and it includes a host of new ideas for hero abilities beyond those found on existing heroes which are, at least theoretically, well balanced. I'm not sure exactly how extensive Stoney's own testing has been, but he's a genius at writing well thought out mechanics, so I have faith regardless.

Unfortunately, making your own heroes is not something that can just be eyeballed while you're preparing to play the game. Ideas that seem harmless have a way of getting broken pretty fast, and ideas that sound powerful often end up being less effective that expected. Using Antistone's program will help you make sure your heroes are numerically even and that the OL still has a chance, but it does require you to download and learn a program outside of the game itself before you're away to the races.

Steve-O said:

What an amazing answer! Thanks for taking the time to write it up. There were so many great points there that I'm almost speechless. The rotation of OL in the beginning is a great idea, as it will give all the willing players an opportunity to experience that part.

Is it also in Road to Legend where all the quests are about killing a big baddie in the end? No quests where the aim is to recover some artifact or something?

If we choose to go all the way to the long RtL campaign and if we choose to use the custom created characters (which I think would add a lot to the overall experience of the players), then we'll definitely create them with that generator you pointed me to.

After your description of the game I started thinking that instead of Diablo, I think Descent will be more like Xcom/Jagged Alliance/Silent Storm - type turn based game set in the fantasy setting, where the AI is a human. Sounds good to me.

Mordjinn said:

There's one big artifact the heroes can go after (the Crown of the Elder Kings) when they reach the Gold level of the campaign in Road to Legend, and of course there are other rewards along the way, but even when there's a final reward like that, there's still a big bad to be killed before you get it. I don't know if there are any similar things in Sea of Blood. Most of the regular dungeons are composed of 3 levels, drawn randomly from a deck of "dungeon cards" and each level requires you to kill a boss monster to advance. Kill the boss on level 3 and you're done that dungeon.

There are also some Relics and such things floating around vanilla Descent too, but usually finding them entails killing a big bad. Need to destroy that cursed sword? Okay, but first you have to go through this big demon guy to get to the one place you can destroy it. Off to rescue the princess from her captors? Good stuff, there's just this one boss you have to kill before you can take her through a glyph to town. That's what I meant with my earlier statement. The heroes have all sorts of "reasons" for going on the various quests in the base game, but when you get to it the goal is mainly just "kill this boss to accomplish your quest." The reasons just add flavour, they don't change the game play.

In the Advanced Camapign, the Overlord player has a Plot he's trying to accomplish to win (there are 3 Plots in each Advanced Campaign expansion for him to choose from.) Depending on the Plot he chooses, the heroes can harass his efforts by capturing the Shiny MacGuffins he needs and locking them up in town vaults, but the only way they're going to finally stop him is by advancing to the top of the Gold Level and going to kill the Overlord's Avatar in the final battle. I suppose the ability to chase after those macguffins does allow for change in gameplay, though, now that I think about it.

The overlord can also use his minions to attack and raze cities, cutting off the heroes' resources. And if he burns enough cities he wins by default. So there is some room for variation of gameplay in the advanced campaigns. It's mostly in the hands of the OL, though. The heroes are left to react as appropriate and try to stay in the game long enough to kill the Avatar.

Mordjinn said:

In a tactical respect, absolutely. There's not as much in terms of researching upgrades or building bases (although there are town upgrades in RtL and ship upgrades in SoB) but otherwise I'd say those games are a fairly accurate example, barring setting, of course. Diablo is also a reasonably good example, I suppose. The video game is mostly hack and slash with a lot of atmosphere, but you're still mostly looking for the boss and then killing him. In that regard Descent matches quite well.

As for game aids, make sure to head over to Headless Hollow and download the summary sheets he's created. There's two versions, one for the normal quests and another for the Road to Legend campaign.

They're pretty awesome and hold nearly all the information needed during the game, which will greatly reduce the amount of time you spend riffling through the rulebook(s).

Amazing stuff! It is great to see that Descent has not a active fanbase working to enhance the game, but also some brilliant people here at the forums who are willing to invest time to give other people chance to enjoy the game at its best.

I guess with one offs killing the big bad end dude in the end is more of a climax than an anticlimax, but it might be a bit funny in the longer campaign. Then again the game IS all about dungeon crawling and big boss fights are play important part there. I wish I can get the game few days before and have time to play at least few rounds solo.

The summary sheets are great and Headless Hollow seems like a treasure chest of summary sheet for all our games.

Cheers (and if you feel there are even more tips that we could use, please don't be shy).

Descent isn't that overtly complicated, I've played it with some people that had never before played any serious hobby games, only basic stuff like Risk etc, and they ran with it pretty quick. There are however a lot of intricacies and tactics involved, especially in the advanced campaigns, and it will probably take your heroes several plays to develop these.

This is the reason most people will recommend to play a number of normal quests before jumping in the advanced campaign, which can be overwhelming for the heroes. Otherwise it's possible they're gonna find themselves getting crushed early on in the campaign, which might reduce their willingness to continue playing the game at all. And this would be a shame because Descent really is a great and rich game, especially taking into account the campaign play.

Kerrigan said:

Good point. I've understood that the Vanilla box quests (at least the first ones) favor the heroes slightly. Maybe this is to give the the feel of accomplishment and lure them in. I really wish the game appeals to me and the group as the campaign play sounds brillliant.

Kerrigan said:

Not only can the heroes get crushed early on, but if the OL player is seriously trying to win it behooves him to deliberately try and crush them early. Because once they start getting into silver and gold gear, the OL's chances dwindle quickly. So it's not just something that might happen, it's something that probably will happen if the heroes don't have a good grasp of the basic tactics in the game. Assuming the OL player is trying to win, of course.

The same general thesis is true in vanilla Descent, although it hurts less there because each quest is a self-contained adventure. If the heroes lose early in a vanilla dungeon, they've killed a few hours and they can choose to restart or move on to the next quest (the story elements don't really demand finishing one quest before moving on the next.) If the heroes lose "early" in a campaign game, they may already have been at it for three or four game sessions spread out over a couple of weeks (real time), and the only choice they really have is to start over from the beginning. This is a subtlety that's not immediately apparent to new players, but it's much more frustrating to be crushed early in AC. Especially if you know the reason you lost was due to some rookie mistake and not simply a good OL tactic.

Kerrigan said:

I recommend it because the ACs are actually a big, slow strategy game, with the descent tactical game inserted as the engine. Players, especially heroes who's decisions drive the engine, need to be able to tick over the engine almost automatically because their actual focus needs to be the strategy game. You drive the engine according to your strategic needs.
Noob players are likely to be still grappling with the tactical engine and be unable to keep their eyes on the strategy which is the actual game. Consequently they drive (erratically, because they don't even have a proper handle on this yet)) in the wrong direction and get crushed.

In other words, they are so busy sorting out how to work the pedals, gears and steering wheel that they drive over a cliff or into a tree!

Corbon said:

That's a very nice anology actually. When you do start a campaign make sure your heroes understand their final goal. Stress the fact that the entire point of the campaign is to get strong enough to ultimately defeat the Overlord's avatar, which is the strategy game Corbon is talking about.

Between all the traveling and dungeoncrawling many players lose track of this and forget to look at the bigger picture.

hey guys

ive been looking at getting this game for the last couple of weeks, the price tag has set me to reading lots of reveiws and stuff, but this thread has finally convinced me to go yes. i have been a dungeon crawler for 20 years and own/have tried most of them, but never descent despite how popular it is. i really like the idea of the overlord rather than a dungeon master, as we generally play a lot of eurogames like settlers of catan were everyone has a chance of winning, and going back to playing a narrator-ish role wouldnt be good for me or my mates.

also, the advice of playing the game vanilla before adding extras is appealling, as i would have had no real idea as to where to go after, but either campaign box would probably be where i ended up.

i'd just go for road to legend (advanced campaign) right away. it's how descent should have been from the beginning.

Thanks for everyone in this thread. Last weekend we finally got the two first games under our belts.

First night the heroes totally thrashed me in the first basic box dungeon. I let the group choose their heroes and had absolutely no chance against them as the overlord deck was poorly shuffled I didn't have any spawn cards in my hand before they hit Area 2. Still we had fun and although they felt that there was a little lack of challenge, I told my group that it was supposed to be easy quest. Those area effect weapons are total nukes...

The second night we played the quest number two. This time I made the randomly draw the heroes. They still had pretty much the same group (Two mages, melee warrior and runner/ranged). This time our runner/Legolas/elf archer player (he always has assassin-type fast and deadly characters) got the same hero as the previous night (Bogran the Shadow), but completely different skills. Where the first night he had marksman and +2 fatigue skills and was a total ranged killer, he had +1 armor against melee and ranged attacks and acrobatics the second. Needless to say he was totally demoralized from the start, when he realized how underpowered his guy was compared to the other night. It was a bit of a letdown for everyone, when he shouted "this guy is so crap" every five minutes. That combined with the fact that they didn't know the quirks of the quest gave me victory just when they entered the red rune door area. I just swamped them with monsters and luckily webbed the acrobatics runner with a spawned master spider. Also they didn't pay attention to the fluff text, which kind of threw them a total surprise on what the hell to do.

It was important for me to see that Overlord can win and also taught a valuable lesson to the heroes as they were clearly expecting an easier run. For some it is still a bit hard to understand that it is a boardgame and I'm not a gamemaster, but trying to optimize and kill them if I can. As opposed to the RPG's I'm not there to offer just a good challenge and lose in the end, but to win and end the fun even before it starts.

Overall we had great time and everyone is really eager to play again. I just wish the next time our assassin-dude get a bit "better" skills on the draw. The first session took seven hours and the second something like three, so it is a looooooong game.

Couple of rules questions came to mind:

1. When a hero is stunned, can they still use fatigue to move (and then attack)? What about if they are webbed?

2. Is it really so that the overlord starts with zero threat?

3. Three skills on heroes feels like really strong starting combo. Is it really that they pick three and can discard one to pick a new one, but have to keep that one?

4. Can flying monsters stop (and attack) while standing on a pit?

5. What in your opinion makes more balanced and more fun game, randomly picking the characters or choosing them?

6. Is +2 fatigue and marksman a super combo of skills or is the first quest so easy that it just feels like it?