Good folk,

firstly the disclaimer:
Of course i noticed the earlier 'New Shub'-thread, but since that seems to have spinned off in a 'mi-go viability'-direction (which is very interesting, don't get me wrong), i feel it would be nice to make a new thread on Shub, since, what I feel is the most important innovation that the card brings, is still not being discussed on the forum.

I'm talking of course on the combo with Itenerant Scolar that Marius mentions in his article.
For those of you who didn't get the idea, let me explain:

- Shub allows you to put into play all Dark Young in your had and discard pile for draining a domain of (min.) 2.
- Hungry Dark Young and Rampagin Dark Young each allow you to put into play a character with printed cost 2/3 or lower from your hand or discard pile, when it enters play (RDY) or is put into play (HDY) themselves.
- Itenerant Scholar can be sacced to move a undrain a domain (that you control) and drain another (that you're oppo controls).

This means: when you have Shub in play, and have Iterant Scholar in hand or in the discard pile you can:
- by any means (yuggoth contract!) put Rampaging DY in the discard pile from play, (1 drained, 2 undrained)
OR
- by any means play (and then sac (yuggoth contract!) Hungry DY) (1 drained, 2 undrained)
in order to:
- put into play from your discard pile the Itenerant Scholar, then sac it (1 drained, 2 undrained)
in order to:
- undrain your own domain and drain an oppo's (3 undrained)
after which you:
- activate shub's ability with your newly undrained domain in order to: (1 drained, 2 undrained
Start from the top, but adding +1 drained on your side for every iteration.

Doing this combo after your oppo's refresh fase, but before his draw fase (which you can, see the rulebook timing table) totally locks down your oppo, since he's drained out before being able to draw and thus play, any cards. Of course you'll be drained as well, but since you'll have drawn lots of cards (extra Dark Young!) that you put into play through shub's ability, you'll probably be able to out-character him.

This concept is a total novelty for the LCG, in which these kinds of combo's were until this day non-existent.
How do we feel about it ?

Me personally, I like it. It's a meta-novelty and as such that's, imho, applaudable.
It's also very playable i think, without leaving the oppo without a fighting chance (which is good, since we're still playing this game to be able to play a game .. that's exactly why magah/steps wasn't such a good idea).
The combo's not that hard to get into play (priestess of bubabastis, seeker of mysteries & yog's doppelganger, possibly combined with ghoulish worshipper, Things in the Ground (since you're playing Yog for the doppelganger) and Journey to the other side makes for a reliable way to get Shub early. Things in the Ground, combined maybe with twilight gate and Servant from Out of Time can get the Itenerant Scholar into play or into discard pile without the need of having Miskatonic resourced. Yog removal takes care of the rest ...
However, the combo's far from uncounterable, since it still takes some time to build up, and can be slowed much be hitting the right targets on the right time, or countering the right triggered abilitys at the right time. And then there's snow graves of course ... (pack those burrowing beneath's !)

A

How do you all feel about this ?
Is the deck viable ? Do you like the idea of lockdown decks for the LCG in general? Do you think it adds to the meta, or is it so cornercase that nobody should worry about it ... etc etc ... ?

Kind regards,

Thomas

I have to admit, if it were playing with a group of friends and someone used Itinerant Scholar to drain the adversaries' domains, I would truly frown upon it. I always assumed you could only move tokens from your side of the table, and the use of the character would be to undrain a stronger (4-5 cards) domain at the expense of a weaker (1-2 cards) domain.

But what do I know? Most of the times I'm playing I end up thinking if I'm not making stuff up... I have a feeling in a few years the FAQ of this game is going to be an Epic Saga with more pages than the Homer's works combined.

FYI, this lockdown isn't new with the new Shubby card. My normal opponent did it with the Itinerant scholar and some Yog cards while back (there's a post here somewhere about it). Also, my current Shubby deck does it as well, even without the new Shub card.

The Dark Young you mention are needed. You can use either the Yuggoth Contract or the Chupacabra to kill off what needs to be killed off. Either the Rampagin Dark Young going to the discard or that Miskatonic character (Peesley? I can't recall) that brings back everything that died this phase will bring it all back.

I've taken to using the Chupacabra more than the Yuggoth contract since if you need to do it more than a few rounds, you're risking decking yourself with the Contract. But it is still there for when you need cards.

Also, with all the triggered effects of playing stuff from hand and domain refreshing and all that, I will *frequently* play my entire hand on the first turn. It's a little absurd. Anyway.... my current deck (from memory so this is likely to be way off. Sorry for messing up so many of the names)

SHUBBY
3x Rampaging Dark Young
3x Hungry Dark Young
3x ??? Dark Young (refresh character or support card)
3x Chupacabra
3x Y'Golonac (cuz... well a Shub deck should have him)
3x Buried Under (destroy support card)
3x Shocking Transformation
3x Priestess of Bubastis

MISKATONIC
3x Itinerant Scholar
3x Nathan Peesley (or whoever it is that returns all dead to play)
3x Erin Morai (might have the name wrong... the Misk character that readies something when she enters play)
3x Binding (mostly just to have more Misk in the deck but can be helpful)
3x Necronomicon (sooo nice to sacrifice other people's chars to draw cards)

NEUTRAL
3x Eldrich Nexus (extra domains for Y'gol and all the "pay 1 to" effects)
3x Yuggoth Contract

5x Hmmmm Missing 5 cards. Can't remember what they are. So sad.

Cards I've recently taken out:
SHUB - Ghoulish Worshiper. (Was only needed for Y'Golonac, and the Priestess gets him out easy enough)
SHUB - ???? Mother (If you overpaid for it you can refresh a domain. Rarely ever was as useful as other stuff)

I despise lockdown decks. I think both players should be able to play their decks, not only the first one to get his combo running.

I can certainly agree with this sentiment. They are certainly annoying to play against (originally the deck I posted was just about getting things in play and not caring if they died cuz they were coming back. but it... evolved)

However, there are so many types of decks that are annoying to play against...

Discard Decks: You don't get to play your stuff cuz it's in the discard pile:

Destruction Decks: You don't get to use it cuz it's always dieing.

Control Decks: You don't get to use it cuz your opponent is always exhausting it, returning it to hand, etc etc.

chicklewis said:

I second that. For me it just feels broken. You just working towards getting the combo on the table and then the game simply is over. Seems also really boring to me

The skill is in putting the pieces of the combo together, while preventing the other player of breaking those pieces or winning in the mean time.Then, the game comes to a brutal end, for sure. But I see combo decks more interesting to play than a straight destruction deck coupled with ... let's say "endless interrogation" which doesnt require much study at all, and makes for a very annoying game as well. The ideal would be to have a deck which can stand a fight and also have that combo opportunity, if needed, and I think the deck above quite achives that.

In my environment people would simply refuse to play against this deck if it was truly effective in consistenly achieving this sort of lock down. Then that person would need to either make a different deck or not play. This is how we currently deal with Endless Interrogation. Since FFG is too lackadaisical to seriously deal with balance or rules issue we have a little something I call 'Meta Rules'. Why not? People make up their own rules and limitations for games all the time. Ever played stick ball or Indian ball when growing up? If you did I bet your version, rules, etc. were different than in my neighborhood.

REALITY CHECK: What we currently have is a fairly well put together LCG that requires some creativity on a local playgroup level to smooth out the rough spots a bit.

I'm still learning the game but it seems to me this is no different of an issue than in Magic or any other card game. The major difference seems to be that in a game like Magic it comes down to who has the most money to spend on boosters to get the needed cards, while with COC the chances are very good that anyone you play against has access to the same card base as you.

I agree that "cut throat" games are not much fun, half the fun of this game, for me anyway, are the story aspects which I think would be lost using a deck that completely shuts down your opponent.

Doesn't this Combo potential reek of the same dark wind that floated around the CCG at its dying days.....when things like Ithaqua, the Killing Cold and the related Yog-combo to drain opponents domains made a combo deck that was 100% unbeatable (nearly) once it "got the combo out".

This is, from what guys have said here in some other threads - notably the one about the World Championship Video I had posted a while back, what led to that guy winning the 2008 (IIRC) - Championships, amid cries of "cheating" and "deck stacking".....

...would such a combo potential, unleashed once more unto the CoC world, be a dangerous road to walk upon - yet again ? (did I sound like JohnnyShoes? - lol)

I've been playing Cth CCG and LCG for years now, and I always read the same old debate.

If the forums hadn't been reset to its new form, you should have discover what was called the "Messenger" deck, knowned as "DrainDomain of Despair", which was based on such a combo. It was difficult to beat, but there re rooms for defenseagainst such threats. But players do prefer comfort instead of just breaking their decks to search a solution ...

It's a 4 piece combo, which is off as soon as you've destroyed/blenked one single card. This will surely have incidance on the locals metas, but I won't whine about this. Endless and the steps are much more difficult to handle, IMO.

A combo like that is fine, if it works some of the time, and requires some effort. Some combo decks worked pretty much turn 1 or turn 2 - that's a bit harsh and unfun. But summoning an ancient one and setting things up isn't that easy, so it's fine if you actually get a win out of it.

I would be very enthused when decks like this become viable. In my magic days, there were always people whining about combo/lock decks and their unfairness. IMHO, it's ten times more fun and challenging to lose against a well piloted and constructed control/lock/combo deck than to another netdecker fishing some steps and birds. Second, when truly different decktypes become viable and not just the rush deck in one of its hydragazillion forms, it a) weakens these decks, because they have to play tech against lock/combo decks. b) makes more of the total cardpool playable (because of a).

So w00t for lock/combo/control decks.

Yormoongaunruhd

Yeah I'm not too worried about it either. Like they said it's a four piece combo, that is massive in terms of combo sizes. Plus it's based around an ancient one they're supposed to be these really powerful cards that can do crazy things. I think this is gonna be a big deal like Yoggy and then blow over like Yoggy did just a month ago. I do, however, think a solid could be built around Dark Young and Shubs, the combo would just be another win-con for the deck. It'll make for a strong new deck type in the meta, which is never a bad thing. The more diversity the better I say, after all it takes focus away from Seventy-Birds Deck.