Someone is selling a complete set of TOI sealed. The fine print they put in their description is curious..

"Rumour has it the series is going to be discontinued next year by FFG, but has not been confirmed".

Ebay Item number: 260687638043

I personally would really hate to find out this were true, especially in light of the fact that this would leave us with no Pacific expansion Wonder if FFG would care to weigh in on this rumour?

Well, that's what was rumoured before FFG announced FoTB would indeed be released. The question is when, but okay....The FFG representative also ademently denied that there were any plans of discontinueing TOI. In short, I wouldn't worry too much! (although I'd certainly like another preview of FoTB and hear that despite the delay it's still on its way!

At this point it's obvious something is wrong. It could be any number of things—from something as simple as not enough staff to get everything done, to production problems, to the more serious cash-flow problems.

I've worked in the game industry, and have seen most scenarios that can cause delays, but even if I hadn't it should be obvious at this point there's something holding the pipeline back. And that's not just for TOI—if you visit some of the other forum pages for highly anticipated games, like the LotR Card Game, they're also frustrated with no news.

I'll stick to my prediction that, if we see FotB, it may be the last TOI expansion.

AnglePark said:

With it having been two years now since Normandy, I could see your last statement being the case.

It's depressing, because M44 is just cranking out expansions and new stuff. Anti tank, machinegun and mortar badges for that system are kinda like the squad specializations in ToI. Stuff like that, along with tank destroyers and battle specific expansions edge the M44 system ever closer to the game ToI is.

I kinda wonder if ToI wasn't originally trying to go after the same crowd M44 had tapped into. While ToI seems to have spent itself and is running out of gas, M44 seems to have reacted to the competition and offered products for their game with a little more detail.

In fact, with M44 introducing their Breakthrough style games and the first completely new deck of playing cards designed just for those style games, M44 and DoW could be opening the door toward bringing in the kinds of players ToI was geared toward.

I mean, M44 has begun using objective markers more and more in their games, and like I said above, they are now using Mortar/MG/AT badges in a very similair way to how the squad specialization markers work in ToI.

Also, M44 is driven by a main deck of cards to run its game mechanics. They have recently added a smaller "urban warfare" deck of cards to supplement the main game deck. And they are now adding a "winter warfare" supplemental set of cards with their Ardennes Offensive expansion. It seems to me that they are mimicking the supplemental decks of cards that ToI uses.

Whether they are doing all of this in an effort to better compete with ToI or not is open to speculation, but the bottom line is that DoW and M44 continue to produce new products for the M44 game system, while there is a deafening silence in the ToI camp. The M44 game system is growing and expanding in scope and detail well beyond the original base game like no other wargame on the market.

There is a game shop here in Columbus that is just a great local area game shop, called the Guardtower. I had M44 when it first came out in 04', but I was hoping for something more in depth than what the original base game had to offer. About a year, maybe a year and a half ago, I decided to jump back onboard with M44, and went into the Guardtower and rebought M44, and all its expansions up to that point. There was one item they didn't have in stock, but the guys there told me that they kept the M44 game products on a 24 hour restock with their distributor because the game sold that well. I had that last item in no time.

My point is that M44 sells that well in the retail shops, here in the age of the online discount vendors, and that's saying something. To do that, one must put all the pieces together to get that that kind of a situation.

1.) A solid game designed for quick play and easy to learn, yet versatile enough to allow larger games

2.) Top quality components

3.) Allow players to pick and choose, or mix and match the products they want without the need to have to "buy it all"

4.) And finally, especially important in todays market where the internet is not just a novelity, but rather a marketing tool, continued and consistant game support from the company that created the game.

I fear that FFG has missed on the last two items, and it has hurt the potential for ToI to successfully expand in the manner M44 has.

I have a hard time believing that ToI is going to be successful by only releasing expansions every other year. That says to me that the game is on life support as far as new products are concerned. To be honest, I was more than mildly suprised to see FotB announced in the first place. Happy yes, but really suprised as well.

The only thing I can see that gives me hope for any expansions beyond FotB is the very nature of this expansion. From my experience, the Eastern Front has always been the theater with the widest interest and the largest overall scope. North Africa is limited to the early part of the war. The Western front the later part of the war. The Eastern front covers, what, something like 4 years?

So if you're trying to sell a game, it just makes sense to try and present a product that may appeal to the widest possible market. I hate talking about WWII like it is some kind of novelty product to be simply bought and sold, because it isn't. Wargames are however, a unique window for people like myself to gain an understanding of these monumentous events that shaped the world as we know it today. I'm looking for a product that allows me to examine all theaters of WWII, and unfortunately, sometimes it has to be viewed through business eyes if that item is going to continue to grow and encompass all the theaters of WWII.

To do that, to me, it just makes sense to start with the areas that will draw the most interest, then work your way into all of the other areas later on. So maybe if they can get just get FotB released, there may be some new life breathed into the ToI game sytem. That may translate into further expansions later on.

PanzerBlitz started with the Eastern Front. The very first expansion for M44 was the Eastern Front. Conflict of Heros chose the Eastern Front to begin with. PanzerGrenadier started in the East.

It's an enourmously compelling chapter of WWII, and it is long overdue for its inclusion in the ToI game system.

An excellent summary of points there kaufschtick.

While I have never played M44, my outside observations of its growth and marketing by DOW, closely mirror the points you have made.

It is my opinion that TOI will not likely reach the popularity of M44 due to its level of complexity and the time required for the average scenario. I believe it is due to the increasingly hectic and time poor lifestyles many of us are living and the fact that we now have 1 and a bit generations (generations x and y) who are now well accustomed to a wide range of instant "entertainment on demand" options.

Many people are less inclined, or more importantly, less able to devote alot of time to pursuits like TOI which I believe is evidenced by things like the decline in player number of ASL or complex RPG's, or the surge in poularity of easy to play CCG's that took off in late 90's. In the late 90's, GW replaced 2nd edition 40k with their "streamlined" 3rd edition rules. I had my suspicions that GW were shifting their focus to the upcoming younger "playstation" demographic with shorter attention spans than the kids of my 70's/80's era. My suspicions were somewhat verified upon my reading in print of one of the GW designers stating that "a quick game is a good game" and over the coming years I would see my local GW stores being increasingly filled with 10 to 14 year olds....which was in stark contrast to the older demographic that I would find in the gaming stores selling everything from RPG's to Historic miniatures. Interestingly, the number of these "gaming" stores has decreased substantially in my area too.

I am not saying it is a good or bad thing. it is just a sign of the times. It would be nice to see TOI expand substantially in the middle ground between it and M44.

I agree, kaufschtick—the Eastern Front may be the spark TOI needs to boost it forward, and I'm really hoping that it is.

However, when I was in the industry we used to throw around the phrase "publish or perish", and that principle not only applied to a company, but to a product line. IMHO, even a popular Eastern Front release won't save a WWII game line if they wait another two years—or more—before publishing additional material.

Publishing historical map packs is easy as pie, and I don't undersand why they're not doing it. They already have the art—just put the map board art together, throw some tile art on top of that, and print a big map with a scenario book in an envelope. M'44 is doing just that, and it's helping drive the game forward.

I guess not having that is my fault, though, and I need to do that stuff on my own. Especially now that I have a source for printing large fabric maps…

AnglePark said:

Now, THAT sounds interesting...

KlausFritsch said:

It's actually really, really cool. A guy just did a set of maps for the WWII print and play game I produce, and they're NICE!

I'll probably do the same for my own "deluxe" maps, but I just ordered some fabric football fields for another DIY game project.

They're relatively cheap, compared to other large printouts, and the quality is superb. Plus, you don't have to worry about storage.

You can find them at: http://www.fabricondemand.com

I, for one, really like the one expansion per year plan for ToI. Why?

1. The cost. Lets face it. The expansions are pretty expansive (even if they are worth every penny!). If they had released multiple expansions per year, I know I could not have kept up with the expansions.

2. Time to enjoy/get used to/master the current product. I still haven't gone through all the scenarios yet and that is just in the base set. I have the hardback scenario book to get through and the rest of the Normandy and Days of Fox expansions. Hell, I haven't even gone through all of the fan made scenarios! I play ToI few and far in between so it is nice to take the time to enjoy the sets now without having to worry about needing to worry about having it all...

3. Quality. I choose quality over quantity. I want FFG to take their time to make the best product possible. I don't want them to rush a product and for me to find crappy mechanics or other flaws in the product.

Granted, the FtoB exansion is taking twice as long (and still counting). I hope it comes out this year at the latest.

As for M44, I think it is a little unfair to compare it to ToI because they cater to different group of gamers. M44 is a much lighter and faster gameplay for those geared towards the casual gamer. ToI is for those who want some meat in their wargame without the overwhelming rules found in hardcore wargames.

As for the last 2 pointers that Anglepark mentioned, ToI does allow you to pick and choose without having to buy it all. The only supplement that ties all of the expansions together is the Scenario hardcover book. FFG made a great program for those of us who want to create our own scenarios and show it off. I would consider that a great and innovative way of continuing support for ToI. The only part that they dropped the ball on is that they didn't update the map files for their expansions.

For my part, I would be more than happy to buy a printed book of fan based scenarios, given that

1) They were playtested and only the balanced scenarios were added,

2) High quality printed scenarios.