Hello!

My question is: can i draw twice with the Ruby? Win an intrigue, tap ruby, draw, untap ruby with alert, use Altar and draw again with ruby?

Thanks

Carnemark said:

No, vigilant is first, then responses.

the card that is discarded as pay of the claim is discarded before the claim ends and vigilant activates, isn´t it?

Carnemark said:

I think what you're trying to say is that claim (discarding X cards randomly from the losing players hand) takes place prior to being allowed to use Vigilant, which is correct. You would be able to use Ruby of R'hllor twice as you suggest. This is because the Response is not to winning or losing a challenge, but to a card being discarded from a player's hand.

This is a basic flow chart of what would happen during the hypothetical Intrigue challenge you are describing:

1. Determine winner of challenge
2. Challenge result is implemented (claim - discard X cards randomly from losing player's hand)

• Trigger responses to a card being discarded from a players hand (i.e. Ruby of R'hllor)

3. Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded
4. Renown is awarded

5. Initiate Passives for winning/losing a challenge

• (i.e. Vigilant - Stand Ruby of R'hllor)

6. Trigger Responses to winning/losing a challenge

• (i.e. Altar of Fire - Use Ruby of R'hllor again)

FATMOUSE said:

As happens very often, you are trying to use Responses too early. You cannot trigger Responses to anything that happens as part of challenge resolution (winning the challenge, settling claim, awarding unopposed and awarding Renown) until all four of those things are complete and passives to all 4 of those things are complete.

In short, you are not allowed to trigger Ruby of R'hllor in your #2 above, Responding to the card lost for claim. You must wait to Respond to the card lost for claim until after passives (including Vigilant) are complete. The action window breakdown (numbered as the FAQ numbers it instead of giving each part of the sequence its own number) is as follows:

Step 1.1: Initiate determination of challenge winner
Step 2.1: Save/Cancel opportunity to determination of challenge winner
Step 3.1: Resolve determination of challenge winner (the challenge is officially won/lost here)

Step 1.2: Initiate claim effects
Step 2.2: Save/Cancel opportunity to claim effects
Step 3.2: Resolve claim effects (in the current example of an intrigue challenge, the card is randomly sent to the defender's discard pile)

Step 1.3: Initiate award for "unopposed"
Step 2.3: Save/Cancel opportunity to award for "unopposed"
Step 3.3: Resolve award for "unopposed" (power is claimed for the attacker's House card)

Step 1.4: Initiate award for "Renown"
Step 2.4: Save/Cancel opportunity to award for "Renown"
Step 3.4: Resolve award for "Renown" (appropriate characters claim power)

Step 4: Passives - to anything and everything that has happened in Step 1.1 - Step 3.4

Step 4.I: Initiate Vigilant
Step 4.II: Save/Cancel opportunity to Vigilant
Step 4.III: Resolve Vigilant (attacking player's cards with Vigilant stand)

Step 5: Responses - to anything and everything that has happened in Step 1.1 - Step 4(.III)

Step 5.1.I: Initiate Altar of Fire
Step 5.1.II: Save/Cancel opportunity against Altar of Fire
Step 5.1.III: Resolve Altar of Fire (card is selected from losing player's hand and discarded)
Step 5.1.IV: Passives - to anything activated in Step 5.1.I - Step 5.1.III

Step 5.2.I: Initiate Ruby of R'hllor (to card lost for claim or card lost for Altar of Fire)
Step 5.2.II: Save/Cancel opportunity against Ruby of R'hllor
Step 5.2.III: Resolve Ruby of R'hllor (draw a card)
Step 5.2.IV: Passives - to anything activated in Step 5.2.I - Step 5.2.III

Step 6: End (moribund cards removed from table).

Now granted, you could switch the order of 5.1 and 5.2, triggering Ruby of R'hllor first. And there is also a potential 5.3 of triggering Ruby of R'hllor a second time for the trigger you haven't already used (the card discarded from claim or from Altar or Fire), but as you can see, the opportunity to stand Ruby of R'hllor has already gone by - in Step 4.

So just to reiterate - because this is one of the most common rule mistakes in the game: When a framework window has multiple events (like challenge resolution's 4 parts here or the multiple parts involved in revealing plots and determining First Player in the plot phase), you cannot trigger any Response effects (other than save/cancel Responses) to any single framework event until all of them have been resolved - and passives to all of them have been resolved.

You cannot trigger the Response effect on Ruby of R'hllor after claim is settled but before passives are activated. All Response opportunities opened in an action window are held and not acted upon until after all passives are resolved.

As they say, "My bad."

I was thinking of cards like Ahead of the Tide, Burning on the Sand, Red Vengeance, etc. They are all responses that react to framework actions, but they are indeed all cancels related to the framework action they are responding to.

What about a card like Darkstar being discarded for claim? I know it's not a response but it is a passive, so do you technically wait until Step 4 to put him into play? Or does the replacement effect of his ability kick in during claim itself?

FATMOUSE said:

Yes, it works immediately, because of that.

So the window to respond to things in 1.1 will stay open until the end of step 6? There is an option to play responses to the moribound cards leaving play, right? So until the next framework window is opened you can still respond to anything?

Action windows are so much easier to understand imho

Mathias Fricot said:

The opportunities do not stay open until the end of Step 6. They stay open until the end of Step 5. When all players say "I am done with Responses," all Response opportunities close and then Step 6 starts.

Mathias Fricot said:

Mathias Fricot said:

FATMOUSE said: