I'm planning to give my Dark Angel(s) extra tasks to accomplish (save this noble family from Avalos, etc.). This is to represent them having their own secret agendas. Also I am planning to give the PC(s) extra XP for that. However their should be a drawback to compensate for them getting bonus XP that the other PCs don't and I have settled for reduced renown gains (this reflects DAs preferring obscurity in general, including between missions).

So now I am dwelling over the proper ratio - 1 less Renown gain per what? 300 XP gained?

Could some folks who have GMed a couple of sessions help me out finding the right balance?

Thanks,

Alex

Characters have an EXP progression of 13000-50000 (37000) and an open Renown progression of 0-80+ (Hero) that boils down to approx 460xp per renown point if you want both to progress more or less on the same scale. Renown might even be more rare with next to no or little renown aquired on some missions, which still provide xp. Therefore i would go with a minimum of 500xp as a renow point equivalent, especially if you add the option for players being able to loose renown.

tkis said:

Good thought.

tkis said:

Otoh, as of now I only have a DA Librarian to whom XP seems to be more important than renown. I think I'll go with the 500 XP suggestion, might readjust later after having more long-term experience.

Alex

Interesting idea. I would advise caution in creating GM-favortism, or what may look like it, to your other players.

I've played in groups of 7 players before, and often when someone was embarking upon solo-missions or side-quests, the collective glazing of eyes from around the table would be almost audible.

Just be careful, is all I'm trying to say. The game is most fun when everyone is doing the stuff together. Mysterious sub-plots are good now and then, but they have a habit of taking away from the main action.

J-Tech said:

I have adopted the Rogue Trader Endeavours rule for DW, that is to say, all players have separate and several endeavours, and they are sort-of abstract. In that way, even if one player is a little more in the limelight, the others can use the situation to further their endeavours. I gace each player three endeavours, that are small, medium and large, respectively. The IF Techmarine is modifying a Terminator Armour that he found in a hulk for personal use, the DA Librarian is looking for traitors and trying to hide something effectively, and the BA Apothecary tries to find a cure for the Red Thirst, nothing less. So, in any given situation, players can argument for the use of the situation to further their endeavours, ie in a big library all three woud be looking for something else, but they all would have reason to go there. Recently, they met a Magos biologis - which promoted the Apothecary to talk shop, the DA to check his Auspex data for signs of fugitive SM and the techmarine to check for data / talk about Cybernetics in general.

Just to give you an idea, techmarine:

small endeavour : modify backshield for Mechadendrite to fit

medium endeavour: reroute power and optimise neural interface for integration of black carapace

large endeavour: lay down in schematics, rewire neural interface, look for sanction of mars and chapter

as you can see, it matters little what you set down. The large endeavour involves politics and will require the player to write letters to Mars and the chapter during game down-time.

I think abstraction as well as the chance to involve all players might be the more rewarding option instead of mechanically balancing something that might lave a sour taste in someone's mouth as well as having one player hog your attention...

I always reward solo / personal achievements with something totally system independent, so no xp and no renown. You should give him friends, contacts, valuable informations about this and that, etc. Other PC won't be annoyed because it won't make him stronger system wise and because it could be useful to everyone in the future (having a solid friendship, or similar relation, with an ordo xenos inquisitor could bring more requisition for the kill team when working with him, knowing a good place to regroup when a brother is badly injured, etc.).

I think the whole mysterious secretive stuff around the DA should be more a pleasant flavor for the rest of the team than a hindrance, even if it could be a hindrance sometime. Example :

Ultramarine leader : "The mission is a success, we killed the xeno threat"

Space Wolf : "Yes, and we are stuck on a non imperial controlled planet, with no support, no ship and no way out !"

Dark Angel : "If we can reach <city name>, I may know someone who may be able to extract us without being spotted by the misguided government of this planet"

*Surprised glance from every brothers of the kill team

All together : "And who might be this providential help ?"

*Mysterious smile while readjusting his dark hood

Dark Angel : "You will know soon enough..."

A couple of points:

1) Well, we're grown ups and so I think envy won't be a problem. It's a GM's task anyway to balance the player's shine and I am of the school that this is best callibrated loosely during the campaign. I not only have a DA Librarian, I also have an Ultra Tyrannid War Veteran - he will be able to learn a Talent that allows him to use krak grenades in melee combat. The Space Wolf Assault gets to spit fire (Sven Bloodhowl), not acid, gets Furious Assault for free. The Storm Warden Techmarine gets a Charm item and Tactics (Armored Assault) for free. So not really too much of GM favoritism. It's meant to balance out in the long run and generally system favoritism (a system favoring a particular class/race/combo) is more of a problem than GM favoritism, I have found.

2) Lower renown fits the DA's keeping a low profile totally, so it's a nice off-set. Other players can get special missions to, depending on my inspiration and the mission at hand, etc.

3) I like the DA's sneaky, side-quest thing. But the background endeavour isn't an idea too bad in general. It's a bit more abstract but it can used to fill in some blanks...

4) If some of your players get jealous, tell them: "If you want small side-quests too, you should have rolled up a Dark Angel."

Alex

as GM i personally very much dislike such solo mini quests especially in system designed for team-play style of RPG. That doesnt mean that i dont use such things. But also my RP team is made of true RPG veterans so i must do it very carefully.

In case of Spaceport strange ally. After return to watch station few things happens.

team leader get report to watch captain, secret helper is executed to mask deathwatch involvement, DA is asked how he can know someone on other side of galaxy on non imperial planet then DA is criticised for hiding such important news before mission, endangering whole situation and such. If im in good mood player burns FP. if DA survive whole campaign he is invited for small talk with interrogator chaplain about betraying chapter secrets.

Also if DA wil basically trip himsealf on fallen solo plotline every mission it soon becomes boring, besides putting fallen sub plot to story only because u have DA player is almost expected and not surprising at all. Also by doing to much chapter solo side-quests rest of kill-team will soon start to question where his loyalities truly belong. (that is also great idea if u want to plant some distrust between players)

Example from one of our plays. Very simplified.

DA librarian, SWolf Devastator, BA Assault, BT Tactical, UM tactical (leader) in great hurry return to extraction point. they must chose different approach. Then librarian senses starts to tingle. they found remnants of emperor statue witch is painted by some kind scripted runes of unknown meaning and origin. Since Librarian have FL(deamonology) he recognises writing and is able to read it, he also informs rest about nature of finding (BT isnt very happy that mutant i mean battle brother in team is sorceror i mean librarian with such forbiden knowledge. distrust grow) Librarian want to check this thing badly but thunderhawk will approach evacuation zone in very short time, he also know that Leader will soon ask for group decision, (and he have FL/CL(adeptus astartes) so he know about SW vs TS conflict) he lies openly that it could be sorcery cult backed by thousands sons. SW now demand investigation. and so on...

boruta666 said:

Well we're RPG veterans too. :-)

I have to make a few points though:

1) The Dark Angels are not too big team players in this context, especially members of the inner circle.

2) Watch Captain asks too many questions, DA librarian uses secret back channel and if necessary Grand Master Ezekiel will arrive on Erioch. Ezekiel talks to Watch Captain, Watch Captain asks no funny questions anymore.

3) My DA is a Librarian and therefore it is almost a given that he is part of the inner circle. He also rolled up Encountered The Fallen as past history. So while what you say is correct (that it is over-used), under these circumstances (librarian + encountered the fallen) I feel it is warranted.

4) Rest of the chapter should ask themselves where loyalty truly belong because evidently the answer 'Dark Angels' will become evident.

5) Please remember: entire armies have been laid to waste because Dark Angels did not turn up when they were supposed to, hunting the Fallen instead.

6) You can be sure that the Dark Angels' Inner Circle have detailled contingency plans in store to deal with all manners of potential breaches, including potential breaches through the Deathwatch.

Alex

Ezekiel is not Grand Master, Azrael is.

If such situation would happen once, next time all DA will be rejected from DW completly. And now Not only DW captain ask strange questions but Ordo Xenos too. If Ezekiel or Azrael would be smart he would shoot secret breaker in face and take his body home.

Ah sorry for double post.

Remember that All (DA included) members of Deathwatch are oath bound. What happens in Deathwatch stays in Deathwatch.

boruta666 said:

Azrael is Supreme Grand Master. And why would they be rejected from DW completely? You can simply assume that the DW captain and any Inquisitor will have their questions sufficiently "answered" and ask no questions no more.

Fact is that the Dark Angels everything for the sake of hunting the Fallen, if necessary. It can be assumed that this has been a happening a number of times during the millenia, even with DAs in the Deathwatch. It will likewise be very likely that the DA have contingency plans in place for such an occurence. It would be naive to assume they don't.

Again - their greater knowledge (and thus preparation) puts them in a position of strength.

And as for oaths, the inner circle has made its oath way before.

Alex

I am just curious as to where the Soldier finds the time to wander off and do this stuff. Wander off by yourself and make an easy target for the GM's ambush I guess.

Nimon said:

Well, in Final Sanction/Oblivion's Edge it was the DA's hidden mission to ensure the safety of a certain noble and his family who had done good service to someone in the chapter in the past. Such a task didn't detract much from the mission - no wandering off required.

Interestingly enough the DA librarian also met a pregnant woman he has seen in his dreams before and he had a feeling that she was relevant, she was of importance. As it turned out she was an unsanctioned, latent psyker which put him in a nice dilemma: if he does as he should, she will be on her way to Terra and the woman of significant fate will be gone. If he keeps her (as he did), she will remain a constant potential danger and he'll have to find a way to handle her. Will he place her in a vault at the Watch Fortress? Or back to Avalos? We'll see - if he survives the final of Oblivion's Edge (no small feat).

But all that is more a librarian than a DA thing.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Nimon said:

The kill-team decided to rescue as many of the Avalos upper class as they could. The DA handily volunteered to lead that task.

The woman was among the recued who reached the landing platform just before the nid horde arrived. He noticed her and her latent ability after having docked safely on the Emperor's Wrath. He ordered the woman to be removed from the others and essentially locked away. The Navy's crew complied without much questioning. Before going for the hiveship he left a notice that the woman should be kept safe until his return and in case he didn't return that the woman was to be put to death.

Where's the problem?

Alex

So the entire Kill team did his personal mission for him, nice of them.

Nimon said:

Some people just can't be pleased.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Nimon said:

Which would be fine all by itself but he also had to ensure the noble's safe evacuation from Avalos. And if the rest of the kill-team hadn't wanted to save some people too, he would have had a much harder time making up a story why these family of all would have to be saved.

For the next mission I might have a DA Techmarine ask him to salvage some Tech from Tau for him. Another small quest that can be accomplished as a side-story where the real difficulty will be in maintaining some amount of secrecy. I consider that DA-themed... of course in my interpretation the DA Librarian of the Inner Circle also has taken a different Oath before having taken the Deathwatch Oath but in due time I'll try to bring him into inner conflict there...

Alex

Hey if you want to call that a"Solo Task" and hand out special exp for it all good.

ak-73 said:

So would you trade 10 Rep for 3000xp?

If the answer is a no-brainer 'yes' (which it is), then it's not the right ratio. Rep does also become useless after a while. XP never does.

I wouldn't give any additional XP for any goal that only a character can get. Either the option has to be available for all, or none. Otherwise it smacks of blatant favouratism. Which in this case is 'Why do only Dark Angels get side-quests?'.

There is nothing more annoying as a player than some other player getting some super-sneaky mission (which might then foul up the main mission, and will often be their priority, even if the group suffers) and then seeing them handed extra stuff for it as well.

For a good gamer, a side-quest is its own reward. If you have to reward it, you must make it fair. In this case, I'd perhaps reward the side-quest by giving the PC an additional trapping off the Dark Angel starting trapping list, or perhaps a small expendable resource (like a plasma grenade). However, you have to then give everyone else side-quests, too. The Ultramarine might be concerned with humanist elements and minimising casulties, whereas a techmarine might be keen to scavenge technology.

Siranui said:

That's a long while though. And who says that Renown has to become useless? I wouldn't so sure that a GM can't/won't use that stat. One possible scenario: the kill-team gets handed out a spectacular xeno artifact, the Watch Captain decides the marine with the highest standing gets to take care of it.

Siranui said:

Except it ain't. I'm just avoiding being a communist GM. All characters are equal but they are certainly not the same.

Siranui said:

To which my reply would be "Because they are Dark Angels." Why do Space Wolves grow fangs? Right.

Siranui said:

Welcome to the Chapter of the Dark Angels, battle-brother. Your remark confirms to me that I'm dead-on. All of that is exactly what it's supposed to convey.

Siranui said:

The side quests aren't meant to reward a player. The side quests are meant to convey the nature of the Dark Angels chapter. Secretive, hidden agenda, not seeking the spot-light (less renown) - compensated for with extra xp for side quests to motivate the DA player.

Alex

The forum ate my post, and I'm too appalled by your line of thought to type it all out again. So in short:

Did you inform your players that one of them would get extra XP and an extra level of participation for playing a DA BEFORE they genned up characters?

Or do you give the Space Wolf 100xp every now and again because he has fangs. Or 10xp every time he mentions them in-game?

Are the DAs your 'pet' chapter? Because it kind of seems that way. You're also sort of neglecting the fact that most of the Chapter is completely in the dark as regards many of its secrets, and wouldn't be privvy to information surround secret-squirrel side-quests.

Everyone has a hidden agenda. Even my mother. Dishing out hidden agenda side quests for one PC and ignoring the others is either favouratism to the Chapter/Player, lazy GMing, or wasn't thought through properly. Examine your own motives carefully and thoughtfully.

You could easily dream up equal numbers of side-quests for the other players. Maybe the machine-spirit of one's armour was grieviously hurt a thousand years ago by someone who looks like THAT civilian, and it cries for revenge. Perhaps a battle-brother fell on this planet a thousand years ago, and his panoply was never recovered, and the player seeks to find it. Maybe a Blood Angel seeks to recover the Mona Lisa. Maybe the Apothecary gets 100xp for grabbing geneseed every time it happens.

Look what you're saying with your closing comment: That in order to correctly portray the DAs, you're giving a player side-quests and extra XP. That's not only unfair on the other Chapters and players, but is rather blinkered. Why not give other Chapter players XP and sidequests to hype the nature of their Chapter?The Blood Angel gets 1xp per person they kill, regardless of who it is, to reflect their bloodthirsty nature. The Ultramarine gets double the renown of others because they are glory-boys... or maybe just double XP for killing the 'big' threat, to encourage them to take it on alone. Blood Ravens obviously get secret stuff too. Space Wolf gets 10xp every time he gets drunk or takes the mick out of the DA. That would then be remotely fair, at least. And then you're portraying the nature of the other Chapters, too.

Siranui said:

Nice.

Siranui said:

No. I didn't inform them that the Techmarine would get a campaign subplot involving Harl Greyweaver (and possibly researching Tau technology, as the player is a Tau 40K player) either. I make up these things as inspiration hits.

Siranui said:

No but my Space Wolves have been given Furious Assault/Counter-Attack for free at char gen. And they spit fire instead of acid. Svenbloodhowl company. I didn't inform any of them of that before char gen either.

Siranui said:

No. I do have an old DA captain painted in Cromson Fists colours though.

Siranui said:

No, it rather seems that you stress the game aspect in rpg. I'm not playing this as a competitive game where everyone has pretty much equal footing.

I've mentioned it before, I'll say it again: we've been playing such games as Rifts RPG before where there is so vastly differing PC power levels as mighty demi-god down to lowly pixie. Or from Glitter Boy Pilot/Young Dragon down to Rogue Scholar/Scientist.

Siranui said:

True but a Dark Angel librarian who has as past even Encountered The Fallen ? Well, I have ruled he is part of the inner circle. Not only that, he has in fact been transferred to the Deathwatch in order to hunt one of them who has last been sighted on Kharzant. And he has his own back channel to the home chapter (read: Grand Master Ezekiel), sth which even the Deathwatch is not aware of.

Siranui said:

And I suggest you investigate your own gaming mentality and ask yourself if that is a mature attitude towards rpging.

Siranui said:

I wouldn't want to game with you, srsly. I am not interested in gamers who get upset because another player gets like 200 xp more than them. And who doesn't trust that they'll get their due attention as inspiration hits.

In fact you have it all backwards: what I am doing isn't favoritism to anyone or anything, what gamers like you do is selfishly fret about completely equal treatment, call that a quest for 'fairness', when they should be role-playing instead. I short: I expect from players that they don't make a fuss over such things and fortunately my players have on average 20+ years of experience (as do I) to the point where it's not a problem anymore.

And to respond to your 'Why not give other Chapter players XP and sidequests to hype the nature of their Chapter?': No, none of that stuff moves me much. The Ultramarine Tac right now instead gets all kinds of extra knowledge in the current mission (Oblivion's Edge) because he's a Tyranid War Veteran. He's actually capable of navigating through the Hive Ship towards the "comm center", something none of the other Marines could have done easily. That should do for now. And I'd like to point out that none of my players has cried foul over him being given extra knowledge (and in fact an extra clip of Hellfire rounds), they seem to be quite glad and have in fact made him team leader for the mission.

To make a long story short: I hand out stuff when and as inspiration hits without regard for total equality, only with regard for rough equality in the long run .

Alex