hi everyone,

Stannis Ability says: " Players cannot draw cards through card effect."

so what if i play with the New Agenda "Knights of the Realm" and have Stannis in play? can i Draw an addtional one?

Agendas provide Cardeffects! so i would say NO.

chrassos said:

Why so? Agendas are cards.

I think he "would say NO" as in "Stannis stops the Agenda." And Stannis does indeed stop the Agenda. It was made clear in the FAQ that things like the Agenda count against the draw cap, so they must be card effects that let you draw cards.

is there a difference between increasing the number drawn (like a "you draw an additional card during the draw phase") and initiating a new draw framework (like "kneel X to draw a card")? If so, then does the agenda make you draw the card, or change the framework that makes you draw the card? I dont know if my thought process is clear. Its like a character being immune to attachments. If I have an attachment that gives the character "stand X to give target character -1 Str, then the immune to attachments character can still be affected. So if it changes the framework to drawing 3, then Stannis' ability doesnt stop it. You are drawing through a framework, that was modified by a card effect, not through a card effect.

Thats for the sake of discussion, I believe it stops the draw from the agenda.

Mathias Fricot said:

Mathias Fricot said:

I agree that it counts towards the draw cap. I don't really think I was clear when I was explaining that, so I will give it another try.

You have a character in play that is immune to my events, like Edmure's Host. I play an event that gives my character, say Knight of the Tumblestone, the ability "Challenges: Kneel target character (Knight of the Tumblestone) to choose and kneel a character."

So, would I be able to kneel Knight of the Tumblestone to kneel Edmure's Host? Since Edmure's Host is immune to my events and not character abilities, I would say yes, I could.

I hope thats clear. The question I am asking is this: is there a difference between causing a draw action, or extending a draw action to include more cards? The agenda's like Kings of Summer increase the amount drawn by 1, but they don't make a separate draw action occur. So Stannis stops us from drawing through card abilities, but does he stop us from using card abilities to change the number of cards we would draw?

If we had a character who said "characters cannot be killed through card abilities" could I still use Winter Is Coming to increase the claim and cause more characters to be killed?

Just thought it was an interesting point of discussion.

Mathias Fricot said:

Mathias Fricot said:

Stannis uses pretty much the same language as the draw cap. Anything that would count against the one is blocked by the other.

Mathias Fricot said:

Mathias Fricot said:

Because the agenda is subject to the draw cap (ruled in the FAQ), and the rules explaining the draw cap (Core Rulebook) specifies that additional cards drawn through card effects are subject to the draw cap, the agenda is considered drawing additional cards through a card ability, not through an indirect ability, like the immunity example.

Mathias Fricot said:

Correct. However, IF the agenda said something like "This does not count towards the draw cap" (in a parallel universe), a whole other investigation would take place. I would say that it would fall into the indirect method - it is classified as framework modification in the FAQ - rather than card ability, and Stannis wouldn't stop it, but that doesn't really matter, since it does in fact counts towards the draw cap. And I hope this post doesn't confuse anyone.

thx for clarifying.