I've looked through all three of the basic rule books, but I've yet to really find anything about wound penalties caused by Heavy or Critical wounds. Other then the side-effects from Critical Wounds there doesn't seem to be anything.

I find it a bit odd that a character can receive -10 to all skills due to fatigue but remains perfectly unaffected by being Heavily Wounded or even in Critical damage.

Have I overlooked something?

At the moment I'm imposing a -10 when the players drop into Heavily Wounded and -20 for being in Critical. How have other GM's handled it?

Bladehate said:

I can't see that it's requried for critical wounds as all but lightest crit comes with fatigue or stuns or both.

the effects of critical wounds isn't enough?

or do you not understand that the "wounds" a character has is not actual damage, but are merely "flesh wounds," and grazing hits.

"critical" damage is actually getting shot. hence the horrible horrible things that happen to you when you get one.

Chance Silas said:

I understand just fine. I just disagree that "flesh wounds" and grazing hits don't have an impact on the character, no matter how heroic he is. That lack of consequences for battle damage belongs in a game with large HP pools, and doesn't suit the grimdark setting in my opinion.

I also see your point Face Eater. However, Fatigue is something that can be overcome by taking a dose of Stimm, at least temporarily. No amount of drugs can entirely mask the fact that you just received a light concussion and your vision is blurry, or your kneecap was just shattered by an orc and you're finding it incredibly difficult to dodge or even attack anymore. Adrenaline and shock may mask the incapacitating pain, but broken bones, torn flesh and shredded muscle still make certain actions difficult.

I suppose it depends on how Grim Dark you want your setting. At the moment my players are fine with the -10 for Heavily Wounded and -20 for the critical, in addition to the critical effects.

Bladehate said:

Don't forget that in Ascension rules Fatigue can be overcome by spending Fate points (also removes effects of stuns at the same time), and I've heard many GMs who allowing players to use those rules now,befoe their characters ascend.

The only problem I see is that you have to remember two things:

1- While you're adding a level of realism, you're also adding more bookeeping to your running the game.

2- And to be fair, your non-player characters should suffer this as well.

There's the big problem that i see with this: While you're giving more realism, your npcs will suffer as many of them don't have FPs to spend to overcome this, which will give your players more of an edge.

Is this what you really want to do?

Well, my NPCs are also suffering from this. I make a pretty serious effort to describe battle damage inflicted and received, precisely because I hate the mentality of wacking away at an NPCs HP score, with little to no effect until it drops dead at 0 wounds. In some cases, even though the damage isn't critical, the level of damage and the situation and location its dealt has side effects as well, just because of the attempts to describe the damage evokes something in the setting.

Like with WoD and Shadowrun, the thing I like about the DH damage system is that every wound counts. Certainly the little hits of 1 or 2 wounds I won't bother detailing, but anything that hits for more then 6 or 7 wounds (after reductions) deserves to be described and the scars to show off after its been healed.

I am also allowing my PCs to use Fate Points to overcome wound penalties along with the stun effects.

Some of this may also relate to the fact that we tend to only play for 4-5 hour sessions, with an average of one combat bout per session. So they have a fair amount of FPs to throw around on things like healing wounds during battle. I allow this because the only healing the group has is the Tech-Priest with his medkit. The lack of a psyker has gone a long way towards making the group seek cover and avoid fighting until its on their terms, whenever possible. Things like ambushing and repositioning (aka running away) are tactics they seriously consider, rather then just wading in (well, the Arbitrator is still learning...but either he learns or it kills him)..

Since three of my players have really only played D and D, it was important to me to break their mentality of abstract whack-a-dragon HP damage dealing.

It is more book keeping, and a lot more description, but I think its pretty minor...its just another situational modifier on the list. And at least for my group I think its enhancing their experience.

Bladehate said:

The examples you provide are the domain of Critical damage, not "just" lightly or heavily wounded. A shattered kneecap would probably be a fairly high up leg critical and would either halve your movement or make the leg useless, while providing possible penalties, fatigue and/or stun.

I agree though that having something called "heavily wounded" which doesen't affect you at all except taking longer to heal is kinda redundant. If you want a simple fix you could just say that being heavily wounded always causes one level of fatigue, which comes with it's own -10 to everything and of course stacks with further fatigue from crits. Then it would at least be serious pain that hinders you.

On a realistic note however people have been known to take debilitating and even deadly wounds and still go on as if nothing happened. Adrenaline is the body's natural defense mechanism and can completely suppress felt pain... even if the body later succumbs to it's wounds. Once the combat is over though most people will feel the pain and shock of their damage.

Bladehate said:

Sounds very much like my own group and style/duration of play, except that we do have a psyker (Telepath) as well.

What we do (and did in WFRP 1st & 2nd ed.) is to allocate critical effects to every injury suffered. As you mentioned this game is not about large HP pools and all these "flesh wounds" and "grazing hits" without having any impact on the character simply doesn't suit the grimdark setting in my opinion as well. This setting is more about suffering and suceeding whilst taking a heavy toll (physically and mentally).

So, whenever someone takes a wounding hit, he also suffers from a critical effect of half the value of the wounds lost with the hit. For example: Grak the Guardsman gets shot by a cultist with an Autogun and is hit by two bullets he cannot dodge. The first bullet hits the leg for 9 damage and the second bullet the body for 8 damage. Grak has a Toughness of 4 and wears a Light Flak Coat (AP2), thus he suffers from an injury to the leg (3) and the body (2), losing 5 wounds therby. But he also suffers from the number 2 critical effect to the leg and the number 1 critical effect to the body. Time to take some cover...

This sounds like a lot of paperwork (in case of mooks I speed it up), but in our group one player has the copied critical effects in his hands and is responsible for describing the injury. Another player has a chart where he lists all the characters injuries and effects. A good side-effect is that this gives these players some responsibilty and somehow let them immerge even more into the game. The listed injuries are furthermore also important for healing purposes, as every injury has to be dealt with independently of each other. But that is another story...

While it's been discussed to the point of beating a dead horse, wounds do not represent real damage that will impair the individual. I can see where you want an effect for heavily wounded though as it's name suggests that while not life threatening it takes longer to heal and seems to represent being battered up a bit.

So here's a suggestion that might fit your needs, when heavily wounded you take a fatigue that can't be recovered until you are no longer heavily wounded, or have a simple -10 to tests while in that state. In each case it limits book keeping and doesn't bog the game down.

In our games, we use the 2nd Ed. WFRP lightly wounded - seriously wounded system.

Having 2 wounds and below means seriously wounded, as a result all stats are halved until medical attention is received and wounds are brought about 2. Provided the character isn't suffering from a unconsciousness inducing critical hit effect, etc, it is assumed they can still hobble/crawl around during their movement phase, albeit at half their movement.

In the WFRP system, we have lately tended to keep going in combat, using All out attacks to offset the half-stats, so that the character can still try a desperate defense until a ally could arrive to help out, or at the very least wait until a super cereal critical hit result is made, in which case, a fate point is burned.

Bladehate said:

as mr friend said before the level of damage you previously described ARE critical wounds, not flesh wounds, I think your view of what a fleshwound IS, is what is creating your disconnect. a fleshwound is an injury that does not impact you. it is not an injury, you are wanting the wounds to be simply "wounds" characters are not wounded until they receive a critical. the bullet that shot them didn't ACTUALLY hit them, it hit their armor, or perhaps it was a ricochet off their pistol, the point is its not an injury. a critical wound in the game system is the equivalent of a real world getting shot, or injured, something you need to go to the hospital for.

I am also allowing my PCs to use Fate Points to overcome wound penalties along with the stun effects.

Some of this may also relate to the fact that we tend to only play for 4-5 hour sessions, with an average of one combat bout per session. So they have a fair amount of FPs to throw around on things like healing wounds during battle. I allow this because the only healing the group has is the Tech-Priest with his medkit. The lack of a psyker has gone a long way towards making the group seek cover and avoid fighting until its on their terms, whenever possible. Things like ambushing and repositioning (aka running away) are tactics they seriously consider, rather then just wading in (well, the Arbitrator is still learning...but either he learns or it kills him)..

Since three of my players have really only played D and D, it was important to me to break their mentality of abstract whack-a-dragon HP damage dealing.

It is more book keeping, and a lot more description, but I think its pretty minor...its just another situational modifier on the list. And at least for my group I think its enhancing their experience.

your comment about breaking them from the d&d hack/slash cinematic everyone is a hero mentality, makes more light on a reason to alter the injury rules, than punishing the characters because it doesn't make sense.

however remember anytime you alter a rule the simplest alteration is the best. and the simplest way to keep the fleshwounds fleshwounds. is to impose a -1% penalty to all actions per damage.

if they take 5 points of damage they suffer -5% to all actions. you can describe that as a grazing hit, if you describe your damage to them, and keep track of it yourself, rather than let them keep track then it will help to break them from the D&D mindset of arbitrary numbers and massive hit points.

Well, thanks for all the differing opinions and suggestions.

And thanks for repeatedly telling me that I don't understand what Flesh Wounds are, and that only critical wounds "really" matter. This is your interpretation of the rules, and one tentatively backed up by the RAW, mostly because the only apparent effect of Heavily Wounded is that you heal from it at a slower rate. Judging by WHFRP 2ed, it isn't even entirely consistent with the previous system, which isn't a flaw necessarily, just different. However, to me "Heavily Wounded" is NOT just another meaningless flesh wound. It borders on the meaningless in the RAW as it is, so our group felt (admittedly with me as a motivator) that something more was fully justified.

In any event, the House Rules we've settled on work just fine for the group we're in right now, and pretty closely follows the WHFRP 2ed that was outlined above.

The bottom line for me and for my group, is that wounds matter. You may insist that in your world Flesh Wounds are just like the splashes of red an action hero wears for decorations, but that have no effect whatsoever on his ability to jump, dodge and generally look heroic. However, after talking it over with my group, they agreed with me that Heavily wounded (usually at around 30% remaining of your wounds) needed more of an effect then just a longer healing time. We settled on a -10% across the board when heavily wounded and below, with Critical Damage being no additional effect other then the standard results on the tables.

Your mileage may vary, but so far it has worked out just fine for us.