Nurgling thread necro!

I'm switching over to errata weapon stats starting this week, with the exception of keeping Core bolter RoF, but reducing the HB to RoF 6 still.

Still kind of thinking about changes to Storm. I think I'll be giving the stormbolter Twin-Linked and making the Storm Quality allow for a Full Move before or after firing the weapon. And considering upping the damage slightly but not sold on that yet.

Considering switching over to Black Crusade rules for Swift/Lightning Attack and how attacks work in general (different action costs, different bonus/penalty to firing or hitting) but haven't made that decision yet. And considering the BC RF rules. Anyone have opinions on that? Or experience using these rules in DW?

Thinking that the Melta quality will halve AP rather than adding a d10 to Pen. I'd sorta like to change Volatile as well since DW marines confirm RF against xenos automatically. Guess it could help with chaos enemies, but meh.

I like ak's assault cannon changes but none of my players are remotely close to using them, so it can wait for now.

Also not sold on assault shotguns having higher RoF and more damage than bolters. Probably would keep the RoF but reduce damage to +7 or +8.

Kshatriya said:

I'm thinking of doing that too, but thinking about have the HB RoF as 8

Kshatriya said:

Twin linked is actually pretty rocking on it's own, might give Termy armour auto stabilisation or something.

Not got BC so have to live in ignorance,Probably do that for melta's, Assault cannons are a lot better in the errata with devastating, not too bothered about assault shotguns as the range is still a killer.

I'm using BC twin-linked, which is "pick either +10 to hit or an additional hit," as opposed to the DW RAW of "both +20 to hit and +1 hit"

And for Storm we went with being able to make an attack as a Free Action after completing a Full Action Move. Trying to keep the "breaching" aspect of the proposal, while making it a free shot instead of a free move fixed something hinky that we came up with.

There's good info upthread about why RoF 6 for the HB isn't a bad idea and 8 is probably just as dangerous as 10. I'll let you know how the first session with new rules go.

By BC rules I mean...adjusting base mods to hit (standard attack +10, swift attack/semiauto +0, lightning attack/full-auto -10), the change to RF where it does a d5 of critical damage effects (which all players were sort of excited about), all normal types of attacks being half actions, Swift/Lightning Attack basically using the rules for semiauto/fullauto fire, being able to Overwatch with any kind of fire (single or semiauto included) and Suppressing with semiauto fire, and Parry as a skill with advancements at the same Ranks and for the same XP rate as the Dodge advancements.

Think that's all the changes.

So I implemented that new Storm rule, the players like it.

I'm just not sure how to apply it with, say, pintle-mounted storm bolters on vehicles.

Thoughts?

Bonus range, a small amount of bonus damage, bonus RoF.

A more unique, if more complicated idea is to reduce the cost of the aim action by half. In addition, when you aim with a pintle-mounted storm bolter, you are not limited to Standard Attacks. This will hopefully represent the stability of using an infantry weapon that is mounted to a very heavy frame.

DJSunhammer said:

Great ideas! I really like the Aim idea. So you'd get a +10 Aim Bonus as a Free Action or a +20 Aim bonus as a Half Action?

My issue was how "my" version of Storm effectively lets you shoot for free after a move (or move for free after shooting, depending how you look at it) and that seemed hard or strange to apply with a vehicle.

Here's the edited version of the houserule I went with, just to share:

"Storm weapons are designed with battlefield mobility, close-quarters fighting, and boarding actions in mind. A character wielding a weapon with the Storm Quality who makes a Full Move action may make any kind of attack with the weapon possessing the Quality as a Free Action either before or after the move. This free attack may not be made if the character does not perform a Full Move. A character is still subject to the restriction of only making one action with the Attack Subtype per turn."

I back read the thread to see some of your other thoughts on the Storm Bolter and I had a few of my own. But first a few questions. Did you change the RoF at all? It seems rather strange that the SB would only fire as many rounds as a normal bolter per turn, especially if you consider the fact that it has an extra barrel. You also need to consider that the rules for TT are abstractions of what would happen in a more realistic scenario. An SB may make only two shots per round in TT rules, but in a narrative setting it might actually fire 15 or 20.

Back to my observations. Your changes to the SB can make a character insanely mobile and have some odd restrictions. There is also no benefit for choosing to use Semi-auto rather than Full-Auto. My idea is this. A character that makes a Full Action move may, as a free action, make a Standard or Semi-Auto attack. A character that makes a Half Action move may make a Full-Auto attack as a half action rather than a full action. I'm assuming you aren't using the BC ruleset. If you are then my idea is fairly useless.

Did you change the RoF at all?

No, though I did add the Black Crusade version of Twin-Linked, where you can either take a bonus to a single-shot attack or inflict an additional hit. I was not about to improve the RoF to a point where the storm bolter could continue to throw out a field of fire heavier than that of the heavy bolter, especially with much fewer DoS needed to achieve hit parity. I find that to be extremely inappropriate; a double-barrelled assault rifle should not be shooting more rounds and easily hitting more times than a heavy machine gun. After the nerf to the heavy bolter but no changes made to the storm, I really felt like that couldn't stand…when the Apothecary could more easily and more consistently hit with more bolts than the Devastator, that is a problem.

There is also no benefit for choosing to use Semi-auto rather than Full-Auto.

I'm using Black Crusade attack rules. Semi-auto is at +0 while Full-auto is at -10. Thus there is incentive to fire on semi-auto: not taking a -10 baseline to the attack roll.

I'm assuming you aren't using the BC ruleset. If you are then my idea is fairly useless.

I am, though I had a thought that might improve upon your full-auto version. Perhaps allowing a character to move at the pace of a Charge and still take a single shot or semi-auto, or move as a Full Move and still fire full-auto.

This thread definitely needs a necro because some of the issues are alive and best are resolved here.

Here's my latest thought on the Storm Bolter and Storm Quality:

The problem is that effectively doubling the damage is too good. The rationale behind that mechanic is that due to double barrels 2 shots hit/miss for each trigger pull. But that makes the SB too good in comparison to the heavy bolter.

And I think the reasoning is wrong. My view is this: if you hit with one bolt of the SB, it's not guaranteed that the other hits too. I'll assign a 50% chance of the other bolt hitting too and thus arrive at the following mechanic:

Storm Quality

For every 2 hits scored, the weapon scores an additional hit. Ammo expenditure is doubled though. (Optionally, the weapon also allows to move with Semi-/Full-Auto actions without penalty.)

On a different note, remember to give shotguns in this game Pen 0. Or Pen 1 maximum, if you feel generous.

Alex

Due to the new 40K TT edition's rules changes, storm bolters have changed mechanically.

Do you want to incorporate those changes somehow?

Nah, stats of weapons and creatures are 5E-based. You'd have to do a complete revamp. For the time being, I'd let it be based on 5E and only look up 6E for additional reference - for example regarding the stats of power swords versus power axes.

Alex

I think I have solved the Assault Cannon problem. It's TT battlefield role is a hybrid of great light infantry killing and decent threat against armoured vehicles and monstrous creatures up to medium range. Because of it's ROF it doesn't really need Devastating(1) in DW. And Tearing is too weak to make a difference regarding MCs and vehicles.

I suggest therefore that the Assault Cannon should get Pen 7 and triple this Pen everytime RF is scored. So if you roll 10+5=15 and for RF 6 you get Damage 33 Pen 21. A little weaker against heavy vehicles but then again this game makes heavy vehicles too heavy and light vehicles too light.

So these special rules should replace Devastating(1) and Tearing.

Alex