Is it just my inner fanboy talking, or does the SW Solo ability seem vastly underwhelming compared to the other five? *Maybe* it would be alright if it didn't include the no helmet requirement.... but giving up 8 points of armor on your most vulnerable "This will kill you for good" location to get a perception bonus? Seems like you either have to pigeonhole the SW character into always being the sniper, or it's just not worth the ink it's printed in on most missions.

Thoughts? Fixes? Reprimands?

It's a useful ability as unlike most, it isn't a one use but is in effect every time the SW doesn't wear his helmet, a normal space wolf can remove his helmet for a short while when searching a room, a spacewolf librarian can remove his helmet when trying to find out if there might be psykers in the fortress they attempt to attack. The space wolf doesn't need to walk around without a helmet, he can just remove it when he choses to search for things.

Leogun_91 said:

Nothing prevents you from putting the helmet back on when your outrageous perception informs you that combat is close.

I plan to be a true Space Wolf and rarely wear my helmet in the first place....if that gets my character killed then so be it....I get to play as my Space Marine Chapter ever.

muzzyman1981 said:

...Okay, fair enough. Allfather forgive me for giving into fear of death. I'll go rip some heretics apart in the nude to atone.

I find myself kind of underwhelmed by the Space Wolves. There seems to be two general defenses of their implementation. The first is "it's a ROLE-playing game, not a ROLL-playing game," which is fairly unconvincing when all of the Chapters managed to be appealing and evocative of their particular flavour. The second is the rather adequate "well, you can take off your helmet when you need to make a perception check," which always seemed to come off as half-hearted and cannot, unfortunately, address the rather mediocre Chapter advance list the Space Wolves get.

He's is my true defense. The Space Wolves don't need no friggin special advance scheme. Space Wolves are all around awesome. If they gave Space Wolves anything else they would be over-shadowing the other Chapters.

**Wolf Guard Fellsong stops using his Storytelling skills**

Seriously though, what Specialty should the Space Wolves be "given"? The Ultramarines got Tactical Marine, Blood Angels got Assault Marine, they can't take Apothicary, Dark Angels got Devistator....so what does that leave? Librarian and Techmarine. Rune Priests....yeah that was pretty darn dissapointing although based on the fact the Space Wolves use Runes, Nature, and their Ancestors as a "focus" for their powers I can see why they went with them. Iron Priest? Yeah but then you get away from what the Space Wolves do.....fight and drink. They can't spec two Chapters for a Specialty.

So what do we as Space Wolves players do? We roleplay our awesomeness. I am using Tactical Marine Advance as my basis, taking Performer (Storyteller) and having fun with my character. Also talking to my GM on how to make sure my character isn't left behind advance-wise. I am just excited to be playing a Space Wolf finally.

This is getting slightly off my original topic, but I do feel like they should at least get Counterattack and Fearless as advances... it's just hard to justify why those would *NOT* be there.

But I see and am inspired by your point. Space Wolves do not, never have, and never will need a chart to show how awesome they/we are. >

I would talk to your GM about seeing what they think about the Space Wolves not getting much to focus on like other Chapters. In my opinion, it should be something a bit more close combat oriented. Maybe take away Wrangler and replace it with something.

I was less put off by their Solo Mode ability than by their +5 Fellowship at character creation. Seriously, Vikings with fangs, a Fellowship bonus...?!

I think that's to show that of the Space Marine Chapters shown in the book the Space Wolves are the most friendly to those outside the Chapter.

muzzyman1981 said:

Until Primarch's Curse Level 1 hits. I disagree with FFG's interpretation of the Space Wolves overall.

Alex

I agree with the assessment of the Space Wolves. While the "solo mode"' ability is not useless, it really doesn't seem to capture much of the flavor of the Space Wolves, nor does it really impress people, unlike most of the other chapter solo mode abilities (and, of course, it's the only one which requires you to divest yourself of wargear to use).

I suspect that one (or both) of two things happened. First (and most likely), the Black Templars and Blood Angels were both included, and both of those Chapters were given a lot of characteristics (Solo Mode, Trait and Skill selection, etc) which favored Close Combat. Then, a new Chapter was created, the Storm Wardens, which ALSO favored Close Combat.

Thus, I suspect, they felt the need to include Space Wolves due to their popularity, but also were reluctant to include another Close Combat oriented Chapter, but felt the need to produce a balanced list of three Close Combat chapters and three which were not (Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves).

Alternatively, Ross Watson kept getting his butt kicked by a SW player in the TT game.

I feel that a much better solution would have been to:

Forgo the Fellowship bonus. While Logan Grimnar is one of the most beloved Heroes of the Imperium, the Space Wolves as a whole are probably viewed as barbarians, borderline heretics, or frightening brutes by as least as many people in the Imperium as those who see them as heroic warriors.

Substitute a Weapon Skill bonus. The Space Wolves are simply famous for "cracking heads". I can't think of many more Chapters where everyone, from the newest Blood Claw to the most venerable Long Fang, might simply slap you upside the head.

Choose a series of Talents and Traits that allow Space Wolves of any Specialty to function secondarily as an Assault Marine. It should be much more likely that a Long Fang will engage in Melee combat than most other Devastators. This also means that the Stereotypical Space Wolf could be a Tactical Marine, yet still seem adept at melee combat, instead of needing to be an Assault Marine to do so. Instead, Space Wolf assault marines would simply be those Space Wolves brash and impetuous enough to use things like Jump Packs, etc.

Add some specialized Traits for Space Wolves.

I would suggest "Mark of the Wulfen", which could function in a manner similar to Frenzy, but include some negative effects for choosing this Trait (reduced Fellowship, cannot progress any further with Psychic Powers, whatever). You could even make it a staggered series of Traits which gave more progressive bonuses but inflicted more penalties. It should not be as "attractive" as frenzy, however, because relatively few Space Wolves actually suffer from the Mark of the Wulfen (as most who are susceptible succumb during their "transformation" phase).

I would also suggest a series of Oaths, perhaps functioning like Hatred (so improved Weapon Skill vs. a Sworn Foe), with the caveat that only one oath can be taken, and it does not stack with hatred (but could perhaps be cheaper). Alternatively, there could be other personal oaths, but I would still only allow one per Space Wolf, to reflect the very individualistic heroes the Chapter produces. This would also be a way to add a great deal of options to the Space Wolves, while not adding a large number of Chapter traits (as each Wolf only gets one).

Remove the "keen senses" solo mode ability entirely. Give the Space Wolves Enhanced Smell/Taste conditional on removing their helmets. This is a pretty situational and minor bonus anyway, as most Perception checks are done with Sight and Hearing anyway ("Do I smell the Tyranids?")

Remove the bonus to Perception, as the Space Wolves are generally famous for their acute sense of smell, and not for being extremely observant, or exceptionally keen-eared. Replace this with a more appropriate bonus, such as a boost to Strength, as Space Wolves are noted for being very physically active Marines (wrestling, brawling, feats of strength).

Create a new Solo Mode which emphasizes the counter-charging, aggressive defense of the Space Wolves. Perhaps allow them to make attacks using their reaction (sorry, I forget the name, and I don't have the book at the moment), and later let them make Charge actions as their reaction. Alternatively, allow them to Charge as a half action, or some other benefits to reflect their Chapter's instinctual, rough and ready approach to close combat.

muzzyman1981 said:

And I'm roleplaying my awesomeness as a Black Templar, too. It's great. Allmyhate.jpg all the time, against everything. I truly am an eternal crusader. I've even had my character quote Dorn to our Ultramarine psyker who suggested we sneak up on our enemies, just barely cutting himself off short before he called the Ultramarine a witch. And the best part of it? I have Scourge of Heretics. When I have more experience, I will have Abhor the Witch. And Orthoproxy. And so many Hatreds. When I have lots of experience I will have a Mastercrafted Eviscerator with the upgrade that makes it count as Holy and so when I use my solo mode ability I will truly have the Emperor on the side of my dice.

I can have a good character and roleplay well also. I don't need to be a mechanical disaster to roleplay. This ain't no White Wolf emo vampire game. And that's why the roleplay defense doesn't convince me of anything.

muzzyman1981 said:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

MegaDandy said:

A-WHHOOOO!

I know what you mean.

If anyone wanted to make alternative Space Wolves chapter rules, I'd be willing to contribute.

Alex

I have started on "Project Rabies" which will be designed not to rewrite the SW chapter wholecloth, but to provide Elite Advance Character Creation packages based on the 13 Great Companies.. I would love some additional input..

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*** grano salis,

-Skallagrim

Skallagrim said:

Well, from my pov it's interesting but not in sequence. I'd rather have a solid base build first. Company-specific talents should be created on top of that. The basic idea is good though. Perhaps we'll see some of that in Rites of Battle?

Alex

Sorry, I meant to post earlier this morning but it was time to get ready for work and didn't have time to reply.

I understand that just roleplaying the Space Wolves won't make them better, as a matter of fact the solo ability AND the psyker powers are both rather bland when compaired to other Chapter's abilities. Nor do I have anything against the other Chapters (aside from cracking jokes at the dress wearer's expense =P). However, until people come up with ideas to replace the Space Wolves underwhelming combat showing my goal is to make sure that my character is as good as I can make him and to have as much fun as possible with it.

muzzyman1981 said:

As a side note, I have just decided that the 2 SW PCs I have in my group will not have the usual Betcher's Gland. Instead of acid, they'll be able to spit fire. Can you guess which company?

Alex

The Space Wolf in my game is doing at least as good as the rest of the characters.

He is the only one that keeps the allies morale up (by drinking with them most of the time but still) and his psychic blizzard has saved his (and his friends) life countless times.

They are suffering a little for not having a specialisation fitting for them but that is what you get when there is no scout specialisation.

Maybe, but that wouldn't really be fair to them considering the Wolf Scouts are the misfits of the chapter.

The Wolf Scouts are not the misfits of the Chapter....the Chapter is the misfit of the Chapter.

In any case without making ANOTHER close combat chapter, which would have to just about rival the Blood Angels in power, there honestly isn't much I think that people can do to make them true Space Wolves with the current skills, talents, and traits. It would have to be something new.

I think the Space Wolves can almost rival the Ultramarines for Tactical Marines. I can't wait to try my Wolf Guard out =)

muzzyman1981 said:

I would honestly support that. For my 60 bucks, screw the Black Templars and the new made-up Braveheart chapter.

Can we just agree that the SW's are just all around BAittude? They are the only ones NOT specialized, which makes them specialized in thier own right!

-J