trentmorten said:

The problem with this though is if the PC's had kept the previous captain in charge of the ship, if they captured it that is.

If the party's Rogue Trade/Seneschal hired the man than he should give an oath of loyalty to the Rogue Trader, punishable by imprisonment or death (as the Rogue Trader sees fit/Warrant of Trade demands). If he then goes rogue and takes the ship than the GM had this planned all along and now the PC's have a fun Endeavor that involves getting their ship back and possibly coming into contacts with whoever the rogue captain was running to. If the PC's don't like the idea of going after their own newly captured ship than they can write it off or hire someone to go after it.

When obtaining a new captain, if the PC's just say, "Give us the first captain that comes to our door and he's hired," than they get what they deserve. If they want to play it out and actually roleplay it than it comes down to Player-GM interaction and Skill Tests.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

I think this is missing the point by a wide margin. Adding a new ship (for less than the cost of simply buying a new one) to the fleet increases a rogue trader's prestige, military power, total assets and, probably, potential for future earnings. That generally translates to an increased profit factor.

Do you also increase PF if a ship in the fleet suffers a disaster and is lost? "Good news 'Lord Captain' ! Yet another of your ships has been taken by eldar pirates. Your once proud fleet is now completely wiped out. This, somehow, makes you the wealthiest and most influential rogue trader in the sector!!!!!"

If you want to take your campaign in that direction, keep this in mind: Big fleets make big targets. Powerful Rogue Traders make big targets. Winterscale is arguably the most powerful and influential Rogue Trader in the Koronus Expanse. He has a great profit factor and a great many ships, but he's also got rivals like Chorda and others all swarming to take bites from his domain. Your players should be dealing with high level Koronus politics, with their time being eaten up by misfortunes more often than usual and not having the time to go yeehawing to the Rifts of Hecaton to scour long-dead worlds with Eldritch horrors waiting behind sealed caverns. (you know, the fun stuff!) Upkeep rolls on profit factor should be used often, and they'd better have created enough business concerns in the Expanse that they can handle one of their planets on the fringe being nuked by rivals or eaten up by Rak'Gol. At some point if you get a reputation for hulking everyone's ships and making them your own you're going to make someone's ****list and they're going to come at you with an even bigger, nastier fleet. If your characters are jumping around adding ships to their deathfleet at random, you're not challenging them enough.

And finally of course, you have to consider your sanity. If you're going to have a fleet, you might as well buy a battlemat and some Battlefleet Gothic miniatures because otherwise starship combat is going to become a real headache real quick.

Iku Rex said:

Prestige is not part of profit factor. That's handled by talents like Peer (Noble) and Renowned Warrant.

Military power is not part of profit factor. If it was, the dynasty with a PF of 70 and SP of 20 would be the preferred build instead of the 20 PF/70 SP split.

And an extra ship is a good representation of future earnings if it's being put to use and not simply following the Rogue Trader around as a bit of added muscle. In that case it's dead weight and a drain on resources. So unless the ship is being shuttled to the background (say to guard a trade route/ply it with goods), I don't think it should.

Edit: I hate the forum software. PURGE THE UNCLEAN.

Fortinbras said:

Of course it is. In some ways profit factor is prestige - "standing or estimation in the eyes of people".

"Profit Factor does not, however, represent any one thing, but rather is a combination of all the aspects of wealth and power at the Explorers’ command. " page 270.

Clearly the prestige gained from being perceived as the masters of a vast and mighty fleet is an "aspect of wealth and power".

Fortinbras said:

Of course it is. If you read the section on profit factor, it keeps talking about how PF represents a rogue trader's "power". Obviously military power is a factor. As the Core Rulbook puts it: "The Imperium runs as much on wealth and force of arms as it does favours, debts, and obligations." page 276.

Fortinbras said:

The initial PF/SP split is a matter of game balance. A dynasty with a single large powerful ship will, all other things being equal, have a higher profit factor than a dynasty with a single less powerful ship.

Fortinbras said:

Bringing along more than one ship is not inherently stupid and unprofitable, any more than travelling in a cruiser rather than a destroyer is. Apparently it's quite common. At the very least the GM should give the players a chance to prove that they can make full use of the new ship. If they can't, upkeep tests or even a reduced profit factor might be in order.

Yes, I went back and re-read that part on prestige, though I still am of the opinion that Rogue Traders can't buy respect most places, since they're generally disliked across the legitimate Imperium. However....

Iku Rex said:

"You invade a planet. Instead of a series of opposed command tests, lets just roll your profit factor against theirs."

OR

"Give me a Best-Quality (-30) Sunsear Battery (-30) or I'll bombard Scintilla into glass" ?

OR

"You have one ship but a PF of 107, your business interest in the Unfounded Worlds suffers a misfortune and is bombarded from orbit, thankfully you rolled a successful PF check to see if the colony resists invasion."

Not buying it.

Sure, I'll admit if you fly a cruiser into orbit around Zayth or Naduesh or something and need supplies maybe you could skip the acquisition check in exchange for an intimidation or something, but as a general rule I don't buy PF as an abstract representation of military might unless it's used to acquire some sort of assets to represent that.

Fortinbras said:

This one is just a bad example... Scintilla being the Calixis Sector Capital and all; that and the fact that Quality has been stated to do nothing for ship components unless specified to the contrary in their entries.

But, yes, your point about extortion is otherwise well put.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Well, according to the corebook once you approach a PF of 150-200, you're about as powerful as a Sector Governor or an Imperial Guard battlegroup in terms of what kinds of procurement you can make without even making an acquisition roll. So if 150 is Marius Hax's PF (according to the tables in the book!), and Rex's hypothesis that PF translates into an abstract representation of total military might, then why not?

Personally I think they lowballed it a bit at making 150 on par with the various agencies of the Imperium though.

Fortinbras said:

Bad logic. More military power means more profit factor, all other things being equal. This does not mean that more profit factor (in itself) means more military power.

Like I quoted from the Core Rulebook earlier, profit factor is a "combination of all the aspects of wealth and power at the Explorers’ command". One rogue trader dynasty could have PF 70 primarily because of a large powerful fleet. Another could have PF 70 primarily because of their network of connections. Another could own shares in several rich mining worlds. And so on.

If a rogue trader wants military power badly enough he can probably convert a lot of his PF into military might (warships and armies) by selling off property, taking up loans, calling in favors and so on. But since PF is a "combination of all the aspects of wealth and power", what he gains in military might will be lost elsewhere. In fact, his PF is likely to drop, as such a transition is hard to do without losses.

Remember, what we're talking about here is acquiring more ships for significantly less than the cost of buying them through normal channels. "Free power", so to speak.

Your second example makes a certain kind of sense by the way. If you have two would be customers for your sunsear battery, and one of them is capable of glassing your world if he gets really upset, that customer will probably have an advantage. Without having to make any crude threats. Inquisitors don't open every conversation with "I could destroy your planet you know!!!!!", but people know they have the ability and it makes a difference. Even if a rogue trader doesn't attack a planet or organization directly he could still hurt it by using his fleet to attack transport ships. On the other hand, a rogue trader with a powerful fleet makes a valuable friend and ally in case of trouble.