Hello once more!

We all know that ships are not at all easy to flat-out destroy... so what's to keep a motivated crew from taking on every ship they come across as a new member of the fleet? That is, is there anything to prevent the players from taking over every ship they come across, provided they can best it in combat?

Mystrunner said:

they need the rights to claim a ship. While most low class ship won't be any issue at all, cruiser size and above may already belong to some other faction (SM, Battle Fleet, Ad-Mech Fleet, another RT dynasty). Those faction would be hard to convinve to let go or outwardly hostile to any suggestion of selling even a reclamied ship. (Could be someone else flag ship etc.)

The Ship maybe corrupted beyond use. Chaos is nasty and hard to get ride of a very nasty ship may void shiled or even geiler fields are the wrong moments frequently.

Ships are big very bog, full of nooks and crany, any given genestealer infestation can be devastating and impossible to dislodge.

Ships are lost to the warp periodically, raiders ambushs at a far off jump intersection point. The players are forced to watch as their new frigate is turn asunder by a bunch of raiders at the other edge of the system in a different jump in well point.

a miss caculated jump within a sun... etc etc

To add to some of the points above:

1. Rogue Traders often require powerful patrons, and the nature of the contracts signed with these patrons may include salvage rights.

2. Orks. Ork ships cannot be used by non-Orks, due to the nature of Ork technology. Presumably Eldar ships are equally enigmatic, though they may end up getting salvaged for parts.

3. Not all ships will fight to the death. Have some run when things are looking grim. If all the enemy ships scatter when things look hopeless, it will not only cut down on salvage, it may call down other things on the party.

Now, that being said, I wouldn't penalize someone for salvaging ships. I would make it much harder to salvage a ship that's been severely critically damaged than one that hasn't been, of course, but if you're worried about players amassing a fleet of doom on the cheap, I wouldn't worry much. All you have to do to get the players to spread out their held ships is threaten their profit factor. "Oh, so you know that trade route you established? Well pirates are harassing it, so it really needs some escorts to protect it, or you'll lose the profit factor from it." or "The colony you established needs more transports or the Ecclesiarchy will pull funding." Even "There are two really good opportunities to make money, but they're time sensitive. One's really easy and can be done by NPC ships, but the other requires a personal touch" can work. You can even make a house rule that the dynasty can only reasonably support a number of ships equal to some number based off of the Profit Factor before upkeep costs start to get overwhelming, resulting in a temporary loss in profit factor until either more profit has been made or the new ship(s) have been appropriately dealt with as per the rules for overextending one's resources.

Hmm... something like a number of ships equal to their Profit Factor "bonus", perhaps?

I freely allow my players to salvage as many ships as they want. Of course, salvaging a damaged ship is no easy matter.

They have to find the contacts to repair it, locate the parts, hire a new crew, have the entire thing refitted and inspected, get the proper paperwork done, get it registered with the proper authorities and hear back from them, etc. etc. etc. And getting all of that done can literally take years. (about 6-10 sessions due to how long warp travel takes)

Big long story short, refitting a ship is a big, expensive endevor, and not something they they take on lightly. There are plots and intrigue, dealings with powerful individuals and organizations, and If they wanted to REALLY build up a fleet it cold take a dozen or more game session in real life, involving lots of plots, interesting characters, trips to new and exotic locals, and discovering lots pieces of technology.

You know. A good Rogue Trade game.

And I see no problem with that.

As far as a number of ships in a "local" fleet equal to the profit factor, that is the simple way to handle it, and it works out reasonably well until the players get to having larger ships, like light cruisers, cruisers, and so forth. I wouldn't put restrictions on ships assigned to background endeavors because, well, they don't get any immediate usage from them.

As far as salvaging a damaged ship, I'd be careful about making it too difficult. Standard rules as far as repair should be employed, rewarding players who were able to capture the ship while merely damaging it, not destroying vast parts of it. The biggest obstacle, by and large, will be the crew of the other ship, to say nothing of the command staff. What shall be done with these people who, just a few hours ago, were engaging in lethal violence upon you and yours. Do you impose force and fear? Do you offer compassion? Do you lock them away to be sold as slaves, I mean servitors, splitting the crew between your ship and theirs to attempt to bring it to another world to take on new, more willing crew?

Not every ship needs a full refitting, either. Sometimes you may well be happy with the components currently installed. If I have to go on a 2-4 part adventure each time I capture a raider or transport, I'm quickly going to get fed up with the entire concept and instead burn everything to the ground because I'll get more money from salvage and moving on to a new endeavor than I will from having a new ship to my dynasty. Now if it's a big deal when I capture a larger ship, well, fine, that's understandable. It's a Light or full-on Cruiser, it was amazing that one could even capture such a ship.

My point is that when you alter already existing rules for repairs of ships just because you want acquiring a new ship to be more difficult, I think it sends a message to the players that you don't actually want this to be done in your game. Now, on occasion, can a multi-part adventure revolving around a new ship be okay? Absolutely, but if it happens each time a new ship is acquired, it can quickly become tiresome, and in fact distract from the campaign. There are plenty of ways in already existing rules to prevent players from simply amassing a huge fleet in short order, such as reducing the player's profit factor from trying to support too many ships, having numerous bad things befall his previous endeavors because they've not been properly supported, making the fleet a target for raiders of numerous types, from Orks looking for a good fight to Eldar Corsairs who have forseen some dark future surrounding it. Or even a rival Rogue Trader who has claimed that one of the ships was once his and, by right of his Warrant, demands that it be returned, or else. And, of course, if the ship itself must be the source of many adventures, maybe it's because it's somehow tied to some fell thing, its sensors once scanned something terrible, and the Rogue Trader must search to find it, leading him to interesting characters, new and exotic locales, and discovering lost pieces of technology.

All of which can also make excellent adventures in a good Rogue Trader game, of course.

Re: Hmm... something like a number of ships equal to their Profit Factor "bonus", perhaps?

I think that's too abstract, perhaps. Try to take a more narrative, story-based approach:

You could also create a revenge plot: the characters attack and start salvaging some ship they come around. The faction it belongs to is not amused and starts to plot against the Explorers in retailiation. Maybe aboard the ship attacked there were undercover agents of the Inquisition (so some big Xenos/Chaos/Daemon infestation threat could not be dealt with, which makes the RT Explorers look suspicious in the eyes of an Inquisitor; or the ship belonged to a powerful marchant/pirate syndicate whith more and bigger ships and power than the RT owns). Some things like that.

Such things could lead to adventures in which the PCs are gonna find themselves in real trouble, something that could make them more cautious the next time the come upon a ship crossing their route...

Or they come upon a ship the crew of which is already heavily infested with genestealers travelling from one world to another (something which is not too obvious if the Explorers only have to do with those infected who just carry the geneseed of the 'stealers, the real hybrids and full strain genestealers lurking somwhere deep within the ship's bowels, waiting for new victims or food). And the they're trapped there. What happens next, see R. Scott's ALIEN. After all, the have to set foot on the ship in order to claim it (depending on the warrant).

And if they have no official claim, they are pirates - and the Administratum does not like pirates feeding on the Imperium's wealth... All of a sudden their connections and reputation begins to decrease in popularity...

Make something REALLY horrible happen to them, that should teach them. After all, this is 40k. Things always come with a twist. A horrible twist.

Hope that is going to help you.

That actually sounds like a good Grand endeavor: "Establish a Well-known Salvage and Reclamation Industry"

1. Salvage ships

2. Sell ships

3. ???

4. Profit!!!

FoxPhoenix135 said:

Hm, why should they be interested in selling ships for Profit if they have an armada with which gaining profit by combat and oppression is so much more fun? At least I know what I'd find more interesting, certainly.

Repairing a salvaged ship should be the easiest part of the whole process. The finding should be hard, the KEEPING should be the hardest. Space is big, and space worthy vessels are rare commodities. Xenos, rival rogue traders, pirates, heretics, the Mechanicus, the Imperium, they'd all be looking to get their claws on that stuff. They may be a rogue trader, but they can still suffocate under a space craft worth of red tape. What is going to happen if they managed to successfully reclaim a vessel from the warp, make it safe to travel again, only to have one of the Adeptus Terra politely cough, and say "wow guys, thanks for fixing up our ship. we'll take it now."

Asgard4tw said:

Any Seneschal worthy of the name will take on that battle and win. Don't assume that the red tape is backed by the whole of the Imperium (or whoever). It might just come down to dealing with one being - and knowing who that is and how to best deal with them is one of the most important reasons to have a proficient Seneschal.

Just think to your seneshal there are tons of others.

The Seneshal can't always win. Factions like SM or Ad-Mech won't give a flying tough about not listening to your seneshal if they are in the mood or the seneshal even tries to push is thing to them etc

crisaron said:

If your group's Archmilitant can engage in combat and win, then the Seneshal can win in his arena too. Just as the Archmilitant leads a faceless horde of amsmen, the Seneshal leads his horde of bureaucrats. Simply blocking this is a **** move - something that seems quite common among GMs for this game line, but it's still a **** move just like a heavy-handed 'you lose' would be for any particular aspect of the game. The RTs are VIPs of the Imperium. that's not to say that they are at the top of heap, but they are high enough to play the game with anyone and have at least an outside chance of coming out on top.

HappyDaze said:

never said all the time, but some battleship, battlebarge, grand-cruiser etc may be off limit to you as a DM or even illogical for a RT to hold on to for XYZ reason. Gettign the end game battleship within two or three session because you players are "clever" is lame IMO.

Having another big faction lock horn with your RT is not necessarily wrong. They can make allies or enemy, some chapters may look very very well on a RT not trying to claim one of their ship but returning it with humility. This could mean an exclusive resupply contract for a site, crusade fleet etc. or even an place within the crusade fleet...

You should not think a DM limiting the party power is a **** Move. The campaign may be voided by a too quick access to too much fire power or simply completely broken since there is literally no challenges. On my part if my players pulled a "No this is a **** move i can do whatever I want" the Dm can answer "so do I, the game is over bye".

Having 10 npc ship to handle can be tiresum for a Dm since he as to put more and more enemies, etc. You should play battlefleet gothic then...

This is a game for every one to have fun, Dm and players alike.

HappyDaze said:

oh and just to be clear, your arch militant could never take over a SM battle barge by force. Sm are the shiznit!

crisaron said:

IME, it's generally easier to replace a GM than a group. You don't really have the power to declare "game over" - only that you're quitting. By getting out of their way, you've likely enhanced their enjoyment of the game.

crisaron said:

That depends on what the Archmilitant has backing him, I would be inclined to disagree. Even Space Marines will fall before massed meltagun fire and krak grenades from storm troopers, and Kroot mercenaries with power weapons will end Space Marines pretty quickly too. Of course, such things are likely beyond the reach of most RTs, but there is the possibility if a Dynasty is truly pushed to extreme measures.

HappyDaze said:

In my experience it's the complete opposite. If the people in my RPG society that are the usual GMs decided not to GM for a while, no games would go on during that time.

Personally I have not allowed the players to salvage an entire ship they've come across. Most of the ones they've fought against have been utterly destroyed by plasma core explosion and likewise. But once, they were salvaging a derelict. The ship was unusable, the engines destroyed and the warp core beyond repair. I personally ruled that their ship could not extend their geller fields over another ship of the same size.

They could probably tow a smaller one, or if they had a specialized salvaging ship which could extend its geller fields to a greater extent. Or ferry over a bunch of techpriests and install a new warp core. Etc etc. There are many ways to salvage another ship, but none of them are entirely easy. The players decided not to bother with it, in the end.

Mystrunner said:

You are asking indirectly two different questions?

A: What are your thoughts on capturing a vessel you have defeated in combat.

and

B: What are you thoughts on salvaging vessels that the players come across.

In part A: I would only allow the recovery of Imperium ships without any issues, anything else is going to be a cold trade endeavour or exploration attempts to recover xeno or archeo tech artifacts at the expense of the vessel. in the specific case of Imperium vessels, the crew is either hostile or not-hostile to a capture attempt.

If the crew is hostile either you have to negotiate until they become non-hostile or fight them. Negotiations are the best way to have the ship left in your care with the least amount of booby-traps, sabotage or damage. If fighting becomes the option, either you pay in blood or damage to the vessel or something in between (your crew is equipped and use tactics that minimize ship damage at the expense of combat effectiveness or conversely you chose to damage the ship and use aggresive tactics that will protect your crew but kill the foe).

Things to consider: an extremely subtle sabotage to your gellar field or conversely threaten to force the vessel into warp without a gellar field. When eternal suffering and damnation is an option, people tend to sober-up quickly.

In part B: i am against the idea of capturing derelict vessels as a short-term goal. Capturing is achieveable, but it would be very time consuming for a few reasons. If refurbishing derelict craft was a reguarly profitable industry it would already be developed, however, waiting for the Mechanicus to craft a new vessel over a period of years is considered normal. Only under exceptional circumstances are vessels of reknown or importance recovered. Granted, as a Rogue Trader is an exceptional circumstance, all of the red-tape is left at the wayside.

Exploration & Evaluation: The physical inspection of the vessel, top to bottom, survey of exsisting damage, neglect, dangerous materials and a thorough mapping.

The Mechanius is your first and only real stumbling block to acess to the materials needed to recover a vessel. They control the technology and access to the rarified collection of mechanisms and knowledge. In such cases you would have to negotiate their services.

After you've got your specialists and materials, the Mechanicus would have to inspect each ship component, bless and replace as needed and plenty of devotions and veneration of the machine spirit of the long dead vessel. After all replacements are installed, systematic testing of each component, reworking systems, etc. and eventually you'd have a working vessel again.

Public relations: voidborn are fickle and asking them to crew a long dead vessel would be no small feat. You'll either have to bribe them, or get some less skilled, and more desperate workers.

Citizen Philip said:

Just a nitpick: On a great many vessels, only a small portion of the crew is likely to be true Void Born. Many crew members have been hired or pressed into service from the surfaces of numerous worlds.

HappyDaze said:

It's true that a voidborn are a very specific small ship-population segment, but perhaps which I didn't illustrate clearly were the skilled professionals that are required on the ship, who are not pressed or forced into service: of whom the voidborn would usually be, but not have exclusive membership-thereof. Namely the talented, trades and professional crew members, such as Tech-Priests (engine-seers, servitor attendants, etc), master gunners, equipment operators, surgeons, professional crew (astrogators, etc.) that direct and lead the untalented masses whom likely harbour a bright and myriad collection of superstitions and biases that would really discourge them from wanting to crew something that has been left long dead amonst the dead cold stars.

Not an obstacle that is insurmountable, but an interesting complication.

My players started out with a single cruiser and through ships captured in combat (most crippled then refit and repaired) they now have a pair of raiders, a pair of frigates added to their fleet. They also managed to acquire a light cruiser off the mechanicus, but thats not salvage related.

In every instance, my PCs had the captured ship repaired as much as possible, went and purchased components, frequently fitting a gellar field then towing the vessel to their space station for extensive repairs. This typically isn't a quick process, indeed one of the cpatured ships still lacks a plasma drive and is sitting dead in space where it was wrecked.

As for this growing fleet, every time my players add a new ship to their armada i knock 5 points off their profit factor. This represents the costs associated with running a ship, keeping it fueled, armed, manned and such like. My players are happy with this house rule as their larger fleet makes it easier to get more bonuses to achievement points, which in turn means that they can squeeze more profit factor gain out of adventures. In fact, given that our rogue trader has refit all these ships with a temple to the god emperor (he isn't a very religious man but believes its great for others) they now have a hugely fat bonus to creed objectives.

Mystrunner said:

Well, I'm late to this thread and a lot of really good points have been made already. Personally, I'm not a fan of having the PCs build up followers in extremis. I prefer to keep the action focused on them as individuals. As such, players in my game rarely have the manpower to keep a derelict ship even if they can salvage it.

But they can just hire an NPC crew, right? Yeah, they could. It'll take time to put together a whole crew, of course, and money to pay them. Not to mention repairs, towing costs, licensing, etc, etc. Don't forget docking fees if the ship is sitting in port for a few months waiting for a crew to be hired. The party will probably end up running a deficit for a little while before the salvaged ship begins to earn a profit. And even then, since NPCs are notoriously non-heroic, there's a good chance such an NPC operated ship will get stolen, destroyed in a raiding attack or otherwise disabled without the PCs around to keep it safe. If they decide to leave the hulk floating in space until they have a crew, there's always the chance another ship will happen along and take it away, too.

Then we have some setting specific excuses for the 41st millennium. People in the Imperium are notoriously superstitious and xenophobic. Trying to salvage any kind of xeno ship is likely an exercise in futuility as no one will want to buy it or help repair/crew it. If they aren't afraid of xeno mojo "cursing" them for the effort, then certainly the Inquisition might persecute them (and the PCs) for fiddling around with such evil technology instead of simply destroying it. Imperial ships are free of that stigma, but still face issues of their own. Sure you might claim the ship is free of chaos infection or some other threat, but will the people you're trying to hire buy that? This thing has been floating in dead space for goodness knows how long now, who's to say what subtle threats might be lurking within it's hull?

There's no guarantee that salvage laws exist in the 41st millennium, let alone that they work in a manner similar to those in the real world. Given the sheer number of space hulks that are probably floating around out there, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Imperium maintained a strict "no salvage" policy (at least for civilians.) Destroy the hulk or leave it be, only new ships blessed by the mechanicus should be brought into service. If a hulk is believed to be carrying something worth salvaging, either the Inquisition or the Space Marines will be sent in to retrieve it. A Rogue Trader crew might on occasion be commissioned for such a job, if there's no time and they're in a good position, but that would be a plot hook that would likely end with an order to destroy whatever's left.

Also, I know it's been said before, but it's a valid point that bears repeating: if the ship belongs to a particular group, such as a chapter of space marines or the inquisition, they might not be willing to just let you do whatever you want with the barren hulk. The group who used to own the ship might demand it be given back (at no cost) or destroyed. They might even take up arms against the PCs if they refuse, and then the PCs are treading on very thin ice indeed. Picking a fight with just about any branch of the Imperium over something like this could make them look like heretics.

If you want to allow the PCs in your game to salvage ships and build a merchant empire, that's cool. If you're willing to tell that particular story, I'm sure it can be done. If you really don't want to, however, there are plenty of reasons why salvaging wrecked ships in the 41st millennium might not be as profitable or as wise as it may seem. If you can't persuade the party to stop trying, you can always let them repair and recrew the ship, only to have it destroyed later when no one's looking. Underhanded move, I agree, but hopefully not one that would have to be used too frequently.

Or you could, you know, talk to your players (OOC) about how you don't really want to tell a story where the PCs amass a fleet and run rampant around the universe. Maybe you can come to a compromise that everyone's happy with. After all, playing a game is about having fun, for everyone.

The problem with the limit of one ship per group is that it neither fits with the canon, nor gives any real explanation as to how some trade routes are maintained etc. As my players have a networth (measured to the nearest billion thrones) they can, and do, run a small fleet. The more advanced a ship is, the more they have to pay for it. I like the suggestion of knocking PF off for each additional ship, pherhaps something like 1/10 of the value of the ship in SP would mean that cruiser cost less then transports to maintain though. In addition, consider the captain of each vessell carefully, as he is in a psotion of immense power with regards to where that vessell goes and what it does. a cowardly captain might break and run to the warp in the middle of a fight or a proud one might resent the PC's giving him orders about what to do on "his" vessel.

If you don't want PCs having multiple ships, consider the length of time that repairs can take in the imperium if you don't have contacts in the right places, a ship without a navigator can't make long warp jumps and so even getting it back to a proper refit yard would be taxing. then the cost of a new navigator, admech contingent (and bribes to overlook you killing the last lot) crew, armsmen, equiptment etc can really add up. if you're determined to keep the ship out of their hands, snip away at their PF as the repairs proceed and eventually they will probably get bored and go and find more money, which is what the games supposed to be about.