In RTL and SOB, should I add the surges from the black dices only for the benefit of bash?: gain "+5 damage and Pierce 2"; or could I add surges from another dices (red, green, white, silver...)?

Why would that change in the advanced campaign? Bash gives the attack the surge ability "SS: +5 damage and Pierce 2", so you spend surges on it just like the heroes spend surges on their weapon abilities, or like monsters normally spend surges on threat. The only special thing about the power dice is that blanks turn into X's.

However, I don't think it's normally possible to have any silver or gold dice; Bash only lets you add black ones.

Antistone is right. Doom!, outdoor threat, or any other method of increasing those black dice to silver will still work if you roll surges on them, as there's nothing in the rules that prohibits it or changes how Bash works.

James McMurray said:

Except that, also as Antistone said, Bash dice cannot be improved.
Doom etc does nothing for a figure with Bash. They already get to choose as many power dice as they want, and those dice can't be upgraded.

FAQ pg12 (RtL section)
Bash
Bash always rolls black power dice. These may not be upgraded in any way .

But, for example, a Diamond Master Troll rolls RGGY+Bash. Any surges on the Red, Green or Yellow dice still apply for Bash. So do any surges on teh black dice. But there can not, under any circumstances, be silver or gold dice.

Ah, missed that FAQ entry (we've never actually use bash in a campaign). Thanks for the reference.

Seriously, this would be overkill if the power dice in a Bash attack could be upgraded. There's just so much punishment that a hero can take.

True, but with a 2/3 chance of missing with Bash, dumping even more resources into it is often a bad idea.

True, but Aim+Bash is absolute overkill...I used it once on a summone master troll and won a game with that against the party thanks to a double kill. Absolutely awesome.

By the way...Am I the only one thinking that Descent Ogres remind of Trolls while Trolls remind of Ogres?

James McMurray said:

Hypothetically, it would probably be better to think of it as spending resources to "merge" 2 black dice into a silver (or 3 into a gold), keeping the attack at the same strength while lowering your miss chance. A Bash attack with 3 black dice has a 52% miss chance, while a Bash attack with 1 gold die does about the same if it hits but only has a 31% miss chance. You'd probably rather have an Aim card (11% miss chance with 3 power dice), but maybe you don't have one, or you're already using one just to overcome a Dodge order.

That would have to be worth it when the upgrade would (hypothetically) be free, as in the case of DOOM!. I don't know if it would (hypothetically) be worth spending threat on in outdoor in encounters, or dropping a Dark Power card or whatever. Probably would depend on the situation.

Corbon said:

If you aplply any surges on the Red, Green or Yellow dice for Bash, you are not complying with FAQ, because Bash always rolls black power dice. (the Red, Green or Yellow dice aren´t black power dice). These may not be upgraded in any way. (If you aplply any surges is not a given for black power dice, these increase the roll of a different way). This is what I think about it.

Lordshinjo said:

That is not a problem. You've made a mistake in your thinking.
All Bash does, is give two abilities.
1. Roll any number of black dice (yes, still doing that), but any blank = X
2. ~~ : +5damage and pierce 2 (IIRC)
The two abilities are not directly connected . There is no restriction to only use the black dice for the second part. After all, you are free to choose zero black dice if you want, that doesn't remove the ~~ ability.

If you could upgrade dice, it is massively powerful. Each upgrade multiplies the effectiveness of that dice without increasing the miss chance!

Lordshinjo said:

"Upgrading" a power die is a technical term in Road to Legend that refers to replacing a black power die with a silver power die, or a silver with a gold.

Spending surges has nothing whatsoever to do with "upgrading" anything.

Corbon said:

Thanks Corbon and Antistone for your answer. I understand what you're saying, but the text of the FAQ leads me to the wrong. The word "always" makes me think that at least I roll one black power dice, no zero black power dice if I want.

The text of the Bash ability specifically says that you are never forced to roll any power dice, regardless of other effects. The FAQ entry is there because people were asking if they could somehow roll silver or gold power dice instead of black power dice.

Could I roll 3 black dices for Bash, and spend 4 threat tokens to add an additional silver dice? (or I have Fatality -one more black dice, upgraded to silver or gold).

gran_orco said:

No.
Bash covers all power dice, and may only roll black.
The FAQ ruling is specifically to stop people trying to get around this like you just did. If you have the bash ability you may only roll black power dice. End. of. story.

Corbon said:

Ok, I understood: only black dices for a bash attack. So, what should I do if I have played Fatality and I do not want to add black dices to bash? Should I roll 1 dice and fail the attack if I score a blank result? (or should I ignore it because I am not using extra dices?). Thank you in advance.

Per the rulebook, "The figure is never forced to roll any power dice when making a Bash attack, regardless of other effects." So you can either

a) not use Bash and roll your extra power die,

b) use Bash and roll the extra power die along with any others you want to add (up to 5 of course), or

c) use Bash and decline to roll the extra power die.

James McMurray said:

Only Breath and Blast are 'optional'.

I don't think your a) is a legal option.

No, only Blast and Breath have received specific errata changing them to be optional when they weren't before.

There are a number of abilities that have always been worded in such a way as to make their benefits optional. Quick Shot allows a monster to make "up to" 2 attacks each time it is activated (but it is allowed to make only one); figures with Fly "may" move through enemies and obstacles (but are still free to avoid them if they prefer); Reach doesn't prevent you from targeting adjacent spaces; figures with Leap are still allowed to use normal movement and/or normal attacks.

Abilities do what they say. If they give you options, that doesn't automatically mean you have to exercise them; if, instead, they simply cause things to happen, then that doesn't automatically mean you can suppress those effects if you prefer.

Bash says:

"When making an attack with the Bash ability, the figure may roll up to 5 power dice with the attack. If any of the power dice roll a blank, it is treated as though the figure rolled a miss result. Otherwise, the attack proceeds as normal and has the following ability: “: +5 Damage and Pierce 2.” The figure never has to roll any power dice when making a Bash attack, regardless of other effects." (AoD p.8)

The first sentence says "may roll", rather than "must roll" or simply "rolls".

Now, maybe they said "may" because they didn't think it would be obvious that zero was covered in "up to 5". Or maybe the other sentences are meant to apply regardless of the choice you make in the first sentence, which would make the choice irrelevant. Honestly, the text is fairly poorly-worded either way.

But I think one could at least argue that the ability is optional.

Antistone said:

The benefits may be optional but not the 'having' of the ability. The ability is still there, even if you are not actively using an option from it. A flying figure not moving through an obstacle etc, still has Fly. A Quick Shot monster still has Quick Shot (and still has it 'actively') even is it chooses to do only one attack. A figure with Leap still has Leap even when moving normally. Those abilities are still applying their effects, they just an optional part of their effects aren't being exercised. Whenever you make an attack it is an attack with the Bash ability. You may choose any number of power dice, but regardelss of that choice you still are making an attack with the Bash ability. You still have the ~~: part, even if you don't spend your surges that way. You still have the blanks miss part, even if you aren't rolling any power dice.

The quote above doesn't say you don't have to use Bash - indeed, it assumes the attack is automatically with the Bash ability. The 'may' part, the choice, is about if you want to roll up to 5 power dice.
If you don't choose to roll up to 5 power dice, you are still using Bash, just without adding power dice. You can't then add additional power dice and claim you aren't using Bash. You are still using Bash, and have still rolled power dice - as such any blanks you roll will still cause a miss.

I can't actually find an ability that is not mandatory outside Breath/Blast. However, a number of mandatory abilities give you options. Not taking those option does not remove the ability, it just means that you haven't exercised that option.
For example: If a figure was "immune to all attacks with Swarm" then just choosing not to add the Swarm bonus die would not allow Kobolds to hurt the figure. Even though they choose not to take the bonus die, they are still doing an attack with Swarm.

Corbon said:

And choosing to make a "regular" attack doesn't mean that you no longer have the Blast or Breath ability. In that sense, every ability is mandatory, including Breath and Blast.

Corbon said:

Obviously, the figure still has the Bash ability; he doesn't mysteriously lose it and find himself unable to choose to use it next turn. Whether the "blanks are misses" and the surge ability parts still apply isn't so obvious to me.

For comparison, consider this hypothetical ability:

Feint: A figure with the Feint ability may declare any attack he makes to be a "feint attack" before rolling dice. The attack proceeds as normal, except that any wounds inflicted as a result of the attack are converted into Daze tokens.

Now, technically , the second sentence doesn't say that it only applies if the attack is actually declared a "feint attack". But I don't think you would take someone seriously who argued that that ability is intended to be "mandatory", would you?

Antistone said:

Actually the FAQ did make Blast and Breath explicitly, uniquely, non-mandatory. That means you can say "this is an attack without the breath ability". If te attack has the Breath ability, you must use the Breath template, according to the wording of Breath (and same for Blast). It is a subtle but interesting difference.
FAQ pg 2
Blast and Breath
These abilities are not mandatory. If not used, the attack is treated as a normal ranged or magical attack.

Your Feint example is a good one. Note that it explicitly give the option to make the attack a "Feint attack", which is a different thing (again, subtly but interestingly different) to an attack with Feint - much lke a Leap attack is a clear and specfic type of attack.
As you suggest though, this is badly worded. The second sentence refer to 'the attack' - which means that, taken literally, it applies regardless of whether the attack is declared a 'feint attack' or not. Since this leaves the explicit term 'feint attack' entirely redundant, we automatically assume that the second sentence only applies if the choice to make the attack a 'feint attack' is taken, even though that is not what it literally says.
The same thing doesn't apply for Bash though, as it isn't worded the same way.

Corbon said:

No. It's worded in an even more vague and confusing way.

The second sentence refers to "the power dice", which, given the definite article (as opposed to "any power dice"), would most naturally be read as a reference to the dice that you may or may not roll in the first sentence, implying that the second sentence is conditional upon the choice you make in the first.

And the third sentence, starting with "otherwise", is explicitly conditional upon the second sentence, linking it indirectly (maybe) to the first.

It's worded badly . But it does explicitly give you an option in the first sentence, which under your reading is illusory.

1. When making an attack with the Bash ability, a figure may roll up to five black power dice with the attack.
2. If any of the power dice roll a blank, it is treated as though the figure had rolled a miss result.
3. Otherwise, the attack proceeds as normal and has the following ability: “??: +5 damage and Pierce 2.”
4. The figure is never forced to roll any power dice when making a Bash attack, regardless of other effects.

Antistone said:

Antistone said:

Agreed. This is where the poor writing is. It should say 'any power dice' to be clearer. This is the only tiny smidgeon which is arguable, really.
However, any power dice added to the attack, either from Bash or not, can still fall under this. You can clarifying it as " of the power dice (chosen) roll..." or as " of the power dice (of the attack) roll..."
I argue that any power dice do fall under this because they certainly fall under the remainder of the Bash rules and the clarifications to Bash have clearly been aimed at keeping the balance of power dice and miss chance.

Antistone said:

I'll have to be honest and say I don't actually consider that a choice.

Antistone said:

The option is not illusory at all. It is simply an option of how many power dice (0-5).
"When making an attack with the Bash ability, a figure may [roll up to five black power dice with the attack]. ... "
That is, after all, what it says. Warning: Paraphrase alert! Not "You may use Bash". Instead " when using bash, you may choose how many power dice you roll". That is still an option, and the option is clearly about choosing the power dice , not using the ability (it explicitly says that this option is when you are using the ability).

I agree that we could certainly improve the wording of Bash. Nonetheless, improvable or not, I see nowhere that there is an option to not use Bash , only an option to choose how many power dice are rolled.