So, I notice that the write up for Hellfire rounds states that they give the weapon the Tearing quality if it doesn't already have it. All of the bolt weapons have the Tearing quality, so what was the point?

Ummmmm the fact they Righteous Fury on a 9 & 10 PLUS ignore Natural Armor....i.e. they are 'Nid killers......

I ran a test and did nearly 90 dmg to a Hive Tyrant, before the rest of my "Kill-Team" did anything.....and blew a Warrior to bitz with one burst.

Yeah running into the same issue in my games. Looking at making the 9 or 10 only apply to the first roll (IE any exploding dice on the first damage roll get the bonus, thereafter only 10's count) to prevent this in future. Also ONLY the exploding dice are rerolled, not the damage in full. I am undecided as to if this will be a general house rule or 'encounter specific' (ultra-hard bad guy) ruling for such weapons, but will report back trials of both methods with player feedback (measured in how much earache I get over it).

I could just up my creatures toughness to remedy this, but it seems unfair on those who have expended or otherwise currently don;t have hellfire, seeing their round whizz into the ether as a result of me calibrating an encounter to deal with hellfire!

Baradiel said:

The only thing I can think of is that it's just an example of the rules redundancy FFG has used throughout the 40K games, or to make certain you don't overlook that quality when using that ammunition.

Don't forget, this is 25 requisition for a single clip of ammo. 12 for pistols, and 30 for a heavy bolter. This is a significant investment (excluding the tactical marines free 25 req ammo request).

The space marine could have just as easily gotten a meltabomb, and 6d10 pen 12, with a chance to catch fire to your big bad monster too

Tidomann said:

Right, but you just found the rub. Tactical marines will be taking Hellfire for their free magazine until they have the Renown and need for the more specialized rounds. Hellfire approximate Metal storm rounds vs hordes, without the damage/pen loss. The increased RF chance and bypass natural armor will often beat the Pen 8 kraken rounds for stronger targets. Essentially the only other choices are Vengeance or Witch bolts. Dragonfire are thematic, but just Metal storm with fire instead of shrapnel. Implosion shells are odd, as most enemies would be long dead before the Ag damage becomes noticeable.

And, since pistols do the same damage as a bolter, slapping a mag of hellfire in is not much cost for the non-Tacticals. Significantly less effective, but still usable, if you really want the RF explosions.

Hellfire is garbage for the heavy bolter. 5 + 1d5 Magnitude and I lose +20 to-hit? Pass. Load Metal storm and save 10 Req. The 2 extra DoS you just got back for using Full Auto just made up the difference in Magnitude. Vs a single target, there is simply no contest, unless you're facing something with Natural armor 100, T: 5 or something. Hitting up to 9 more times beats nearly any amount of armor bypassed.

For specialty ammo, there is really Hellfire and what you take because you don't have enough Req for Hellfire (unless you're a Dev).

I thought metalstorm rounds hit, dealt damage, and with the blast would deal 3 magnitude damage in total per shot? Thus being lighter on requisition and better against hordes compared to hellfire?

Also- if the space marines are mopping up hordes, expending their limited specialty ammo, is the horde not succeeding at what it's supposed to do? Eat ammunition, and possibly deal a tiny bit of damage?

Each hit of Metal Storm is a Blast(2) not a hit plus Blast(2). That means each round does 2 Mag. The burst gets +1 for X giving a total of 9 for a standard 4 round bolter burst.

So, functionally, Hellfire are equivalent, except they don't have the -2 Dmg/Pen. They are as good as the specialist horde round and better at single targets.

The point is not about whether Hordes are succeeding or not, too easy, too hard, whatever. My point was that Hellfire are far and away the best ammunition type for pretty much every situation. If a Tactical marine does not take his freebie as Hellfire, he is making a mistake.

Radomo said:

No, they're not. Hellfire rounds only get a Blast (the only part of their rules that are particularly beneficial against Hordes) when fired from a Heavy Bolter, at which point they're Blast (3) and single-shot.

Against a Horde, a Hellfire shell from anything other than a Heavy Bolter is essentially identical to a normal bolter shell.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

In the last sentence of their descrition: "When used against a Horde, Hellfire Rounds add one additional point of damage to the Horde's Magnitude per hit."

Functionally, that is the same as Blast(2), which is what Metal Storm rounds have. EDIT: I take that back. Technically, Blast(2) means you do 2 hits. It's possible that the horde could be tough enough that 2d10+3 Pen 3 might not damage them (soak > 8, although probably more like >10 realistically), meaning you don't automatically get two Magnitude damage. With Hellfire, you only have to damage them once (at 2d10+5 Pen 5, no less) and you get 2 Mag damage. Maybe a better comparison would be that they grant Devastating(1). That also applies to Cohesion, but they are unlikely to be used against the Kill-Team.

Radomo said:

Fair enough... I'm not sure how I managed to miss that line...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Because it seems like it should be the same explosive damage as a standard bolt, meaning +1 hit per attack, rather than combining the goodness of metal storm and the natural armor ignoring ability of hellfire. And then being inferior when loaded into a heavy bolter?

@Radomo: proving my inability to read again, where does it say tac marines get a free clip of specialty ammo- I (and my players) seem to have glossed over this tidbit...

Page 28: Deathwatch Tactical Marine Standard ISsue

"one clip of special issue ammunition (not exceeding 25 requisition per clip) per mission. Note that you must still meet the renown requirement for this ammunition"

I guess the only reason Metal Storm rounds are there is cheaper cost then. No sense using your 25 req destroyer rounds instead of your 15 req horde rounds on hordes.

Charmander said:

But, Hellfire rounds specifically say an additional Magnitude per hit , not per attack like +1 for X.

The Heavy bolter issue is due to conversion from the TT. Hellfire rounds were originally single shots of a giant shell using a blast marker for a HB. I think it was several editions before they were available for standard bolters. They are not useful in DW due to the way Full Auto is so much better than single shots and the way Unrelenting Devastation works. The HB version requires at least Devastation(2-3) to be even worth considering.

Well... They were never really meant for squishing the kind of guys that hordes are intended for anyway. Standard Bolt rounds have always meant to be fine for that. It is the big gribblies like Warriors and Tyrants you really want to be breaking the Hellfire rounds out for. And in that case I am sure the "ingnores natural armour" is useful.

I also think they have been available for the Deathwatch in standard bolters since at least 3rd edition. Special ammo for their bolters was the Deathwatch thing (that and move and fire heavy bolters), until the Sternguard came along and stole it (and even then they are meant as much as a counts as Deathwatch as anything else).

Tidomann said:

Ah, thank you!

Radomo said:

I totally agree with you here- the way it is worded you're 100% correct, and those are super brutal rounds (especially for free). My point was only that it is easy to misread the stat block because the text feels wrong to for a number of reasons- req cost, descriptor, comparison to other special rounds and their stats, etc.

As for the HB, I see how it interacts with TT, but again, it just feels like more should've gone into convertin it into the RPG rather than just plopping it in.

Again,

Metal Storm Shells cause (Hits+1) x Blast (2) +1d5 Hits....

So when 3 DoS are rolled thats (4+1) x2 +1d5 = 8+1d5

Santiago said:

When you say hits + 1, is that the extra point from X? Has it been stated/clarified that that extra hit is multiplied by the blast?

On hellfire rounds: given their cost, I have no issues with them tearing through hordes, especially 'nids. My main problem is how easily they can take down the big things like tyrants. Perhaps say that they have +6 ap vs. natural armour, but not totally ignore it? This would make bigger things slightly more survivable. I'm not sure what to think about with the RF on 9 or 10. On one hand, it helps give flavor, on the other, it makes them particularly nasty vs. big things (especially when coupled with high RoF weapons). I would probably leave it as is, given the cost. The thing to realize is that there is very little that can be done to tone down the maximum effectiveness of RF. Sometimes players will just get that lucky.

In D&D, the thing is, there is still a "maximum" a weapon could possibly do in one attack (as strength, bonuses, and weapon damage tend to not just increase mid attack). While with RF, if they keep rolling 10s, well...

Obviously, the #1 thing to do is use the DH style of RF, and only gain one extra d10. Sadly, this does hurt some weapons, but coming up with some system by which to balance out RF damage across weapons would be fairly hard/tedious.

KommissarK said:

I would say it's not. Per pg 359, X weapons do one additional hit. Blast weapons do Blast value hits. Hit in this context means a possible magnitude damage on the Horde, not an additional round of fire. It is only a minor difference in effectiveness, so it's not a big deal either way.

KommissarK said:

As I've mentioned on a number of threads, the method I'm now using is to borrow the RF rules from the Vehicle section of Into the Storm, so that a confirmed Righteous Fury deals a 1d5 Critical Hit to the target, rather than any additional damage. Combats have since gotten more interesting, with minor injuries cropping up earlier (and talents like True Grit and Crippling Strike made much more useful, as their various effects come into play more frequently), while simultaneously curtailing the frankly hideous damage potential of pretty much any tearing and/or multi-dice weapon. It also means that damage type becomes relevant more often.

KommissarK said:

Santiago said:

Saying it is so does not make it so.

I can't find anything in the Errata thread backing your claim, but there are a number of posts going with the hits x Blast + 1 scenario (admittedly, many [but not all] of those are by me). Got a source for the stamp of 'official-ness?'

The word 'hit' could be read ambiguously, I suppose, but I'd prefer to err on the side of making ranged attacks less overpowered.

Have to agree with rad here.

I don't consider that +1 for X to be another 'hit' for the purpose of blast. (and when I made that question, I did know how I would rule on it, was just surprised to see that interpretation).

I do have to say the book is poorly written when differentiating between 'hits' against a horde, and 'damage' against hordes