When I last played I was unfortunate enough to draw the gate card that told me to immediately fight Ithaqua. Pretty awesome turn of events. Pretty cool. Pretty confusing.

How should we have treated that combat? The gate does not specifically say that the Ancient One has awakened, so if any investigator had cards like the Healing Stone or Flesh Ward or any of the many cards that tell you to discard them if the Ancient One awakens, would they have kept them? Perhaps only I would have discarded them and noone else? Could I have chosen to play with Epic Battle cards? Do I stop collecting money from retainers and bank loans (which doesn't make sense to collect in an Other World anyway)? I assume the Environment and Rumor cards are not discarded?

Can other investigators interfere with this battle? Could Leo Anderson have prevented an investigator's losses as he fights the Ancient One?

Well, I'm sure I could keep digging up cards that would pose questions about this, but do you see my problem?

The only one I can answer with any certainty is that Epic Battle cards are not used with dual-color OW-encounter AO-battles (clarified earlier by Kevin Wilson, I recall). As for the rest, I hope the upcoming FAQ will bring some light to these questions.

-Villain

The upkeep phase in this encounter is for combat purposes only, so you don't get money from retainers. Since it doesn't say that the AO has awakened, you don't discard the items/allies that are forbidden in final battle. That's how we play anyway.

I'd say you do not discard Healing stone or other stuff saying "discard if the AO awakens". The awakening of the AO is something that stops all the things going on in Arkham and interests all the characters in play. In most of the cases, Dual-colour cards trigger battles with an AO that is not the AO you're playing the game against. But even in the case he is, I'd still say the awakening condition is not met. After all, you battle him in his own world, not in this one, and even if you lose that fight, our world can still be saved by your mates.

I'm not sure about this, but at least, this is the way I'd have played this encounter.

Julia said:

an excellent point.

These cards have been dogged with questions since they arrived, and we may now actually be close to having a final answer, so stay tuned and watch for the FAQ. Until then, play it your way, but I agree with whats been said so far, and I think most people here would too.

Well the point of discarding the Healing Stone is so that, when paired with the proper investigator, you wouldn't be able to heal/prevent the 2 points needed to completely survive the AO's attack. If the character bumping into Ithaqua happened to be McGlen, or Vincent Lee, or Leo Anderson, then he could use the Healing Stone to completely negate Ithaqua's attack.

So, when an investigator bumps into an AO via an OW encounter, he should treat it as though it's a final battle, except for the Epic Battle cards.

He should discard:

• Healing Stone
• Flesh Ward
• Ammi Pierce
• Earl Sawyer
• Dr. Herbert West
• The Terrible Old Man
• Beloved of Bast and Nine Lives cards (they can now be gained again!)
• Any other item or card that says "discard when the AO awakens."

And he should not receive money nor clues. Other investigators do not have to discard these things, and they can use their abilities to aid the investigator who is in battle (Mandy or Leo's ability), but since this entire combat is done in one phase, those investigators will not be able to re-charge their abilities, so they can only help him once. However if the battling investigator is Leo or Mandy, he can use it once per combat turn, because he receives a full upkeep phase each time before attacking.

Environment and Rumor cards should not be discarded because it's not the end of the game, but their affects should still apply.

The above is my take on it anyway.

Does the FAQ not clarify if environment effects continue during final combat? Because while it says investigators are treated as if they're in the same location, it doesn't say they're treated as if they're in Arkham... So... More headaches.

The original rules say that environments and rumors are discarded when the AO awakens. And during these OW battles, it's pretty clear that the investigator is in an Other World, so those such effects should take place.

Headaches indeed.

Most of them only affect Arkham, but what about cards like the solar eclipse(don't remember the actual name) that forbids the casting of spells or another that reduces the sanity cost of spells to 0? That has to be clarified.

We'll continue playing as if environments that extend to Other Worlds are in effect during the AO battle encounter. I also don't think that generally forbidden items or allies should be barred from use, since your reward for the encounter is a sealed gate, not a complete victory over the AO. Unless, of course, this encounter grants you the last seal, in which case all those restrictions should be enforced.

Yep, lots of fiddling with house-rules on this one. :/

"Hey, wouldn't it be nifty if we had an Investigator fight an Ancient One before the end of the game?"

. . .

"Sheesh. Let's not do THAT again."

There's a reason they never revisited this "cool" idea. Fantastic in concept, chaotic mess in practice.

I bet the moment those dual-color cards are dissected in the FAQ, I'm going to lose all interest in them. I'd already been soured somewhat ever since they judged Cthulhu's Attack effects were permanent.

If anything, the fact that the Cthulhu max loss and items removed by Ithaqua are permanent should be an indication that "discard at start of battle" items are still discarded in these battles, whether they can cause an insta-win (Ithaqua) or not.

But... I guess we'll see.