Sorry if the subject has already been discussed, I used the forum search engine and didn't find anything on that subject:

In the hordes rules section, it is stated that weapon dealing explosive damages (like a bolter for example...) deal one more hit to hordes. Does this mean that every hit from a weapon with the X damages count as two hit or does this mean that after calculating the number of hits we should add one for the explosive damages ?

The first statement see transform the heavy bolter devastator from a potent hordes manager to an army annihilator...

I precise that I re-read the paragraph many times to be sure it was really about explosive damages and not some special weapon quality, and the more I read, the more it seems to me that it is the first statement RAW...

It's pretty much why people have been complaining about Devistators. They're crazy broken.

I read it as (and most other people on here seem to think), that it is one additional hit per attack. In other words, a bolter has 4 shots, and as long as at least one deals mag damage, one more due to X damage, for a max total of 5.

Personally, I think devastators have a place. If a party consists of just them, it will have its own issues to deal with.

It is one extra hit per weapon total, not one extra hit for every hit (ie, they don't double the number of hits).

I interpreted it the opposite way, that it IS another hit per hit.

This allows someone with a bolter (like the tac marine) on a Full Auto hit to do a maximum of 8 magnitude damage. In this fashion, everyone on the Kill Team can contribute to reducing the Hordes magnitude, not just the Devastator. Naturally, the Devastator will destroy hordes faster, but at least this allows other characters to make more meaningful contributions.

I ruled the same way with power weapons, with each successful hit due to degrees of success dealing another magnitude damage. So 5 degrees of success in melee with a power weapon would yield 10 magnitude damage.

Hordes are just supposed to be road block and handled in narrative fashion anyway. Yes, they can be dangerous with their multiple ranged and melee attacks, which is why killing them faster is the better way to go. It also allows the Kill Team to move onto the real threats later.

SpawnoChaos said:

That rule just becomes silly when you realize that all bolters will have a fire selector and they will 90% of the time be using Metal storm or Hellfire rounds when firing at Hordes. Your max of 9 Mag (per RAW, 4 x Blast(2) + 1) then becomes 12 (4 x Blast(2) + 4). And that's with only 3 DoS. Your Devastator will do up to 30 Mag with standard rounds (10 x 3). then he picks up Storm of Iron and rockets up to max 60 Mag per burst.

The raw says one additional hit, not one hit per hit.

Power weapons are a completely different beast, as you do multiple attacks and get one additional hit per attack, not 1 additional hit per 2DoS.

Using this rule, unless you are always fighting tyranids or other Fearless enemies, your hordes will never get to attack. They will be too busy breaking or being wiped out, unless you're constantly using multiple 70+ mag hordes.

I'm surprised you think this works better. In the game I've been running, my Hordes rarely even get to shoot before Breaking (doing 25-50% in a turn is not that hard), and they are in the 40-50 range. They simply melt when under any concentrated fire, Devastator or not.

We messed up the first time we played, and figured it as one extra hit per hit from the weapon. We quickly realized that this bogged the game down enormously and re-read the rules. Now we add one additional hit on to whatever other hits were scored by the weapon.

Radomo said:

I find that interesting, given that in my games the Hordes are usually Magnitude 40-50 and deal a massive amount of damage to the group before they take them out... and believe me, it's not like the group isn't trying to kill them.

Given your above math with Metal Storm rounds, you are correct that it would be 12 magnitude damage or at least 30 magnitude with a Devastator and Heavy Bolter.

It's just a matter of interpretation.

The RAW says,"Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional hit."

I interpret that to mean one additional hit with a weapon that is dealing (X) type damage. So, if you are firing a bolter on Full Auto and hit all 4 times, thats 4 separate hits from an (X) type weapon and therefore you hit them an additional 4 times (each shot is consider (X) type damage and therefore hits one additional time). Yes, they used one attack action to hit 4 separate times, but each time was with an Explosive weapon.

RAW does NOT say one additional hit per attack action... it just says one additional hit from a weapon that deals explosive damage.

I use the same interpretation for melee attacks where RAW says,

"When fighting against a Horde in Melee, a Space Marine inflicts one additional hit for every two Degress of Success on his Weapon Skill Test. Melee weapons with the Power Field Quality inflict one additional hit."

Once again, it doesn't state that they inflict one additional hit per attack action, but just that they inflict one additional hit from a weapon with the Power Field Quality. So, if they get 6 degrees of success (netting them an additional 3 hits for a total of 4 hits) then those hits are with a power weapon = 8 magnitude damage.

This could be interpreted your way or my way. The RAW is not clear enough, therefore allowing both of our methods to work.

Direach said:

Really? Bogged your game down?

The Hordes die faster this way and speed gameplay up. I'm not entirely sure how it could bog a game down, but to each his own.

SpawnoChaos said:

I'll agree to disagree on the wording. You are correct in that it's not specific one way or the other. I just don't see your way as being reasonable. And, if you play that way, your chainsword wielding assault marines are just dead weight. They simply cannot keep up.

What kind of enemies are they? Fearless? Bloodsoaked tide? Disciplined? Even assuming WP of 40, 3/5 times your mag 40 horde will break after a mediocre round from the Dev or a couple marines bursting at them. Not to mention Librarians can be pretty sick, especially when they Push.

Maybe I've just used the wrong hordes, but they just don't last. And when they do get to attack, their inability to aim, poor characteristics, or low damage means they barely peck at the marines, especially if the marines make any use of cover.

As an example, in Final Sanction, I opened with 2 Mag 40s against 4 marines, intending to bring in a turning point on round 3. In the first round, one horde broke before it could move and the second was under 20, so it could not possibly damage the marines. I auto-broke them, and brought on heavy weapons team Mag 30 and some suicide bombers that I gave fearless at mag 40. The heavy weapons were slaughtered to the man by a Dev and librarian in a round, while the bombers were down to 20-some Mag after 1 round. Cue a few more hordes to distract the marines and a leader. Bombers dead to the man next round, horde #5 is broken in a turn, and #6 is down 20% in the same turn.

#6 was able to fire three times before being broken and the heavies fired once upon entry to the map. For all that, the marines had a total of about 20 wounds lost altogether.

Really I'm finding that it depends on party composition.

My group does not have a Devastator, but even when they did, he wouldn't steal the show when using my method.

I usually have 5 players (Sniper Tac Marine, Librarian, Techmarine, Assault Marine, Leader Tac Marine). I will usually field 4-5 magnitude 40-50 hordes at a time, with half the hordes sporting heavy weapons.

When the group did have a Devastator, he could handle a single Horde at a time in roughly 1-2 rounds. This doesn't seem unreasonable as there is not a chance that they can kill that many hordes in just 1-2 rounds without taking some serious hits.

To each his own.

I think I agree with Spawn, my party does have a devestator, and as it stands, he can eat a mag 40 horde with a single full auto burst, giving him MORE mag damage wont' actually make him better, the Horde can only get so very dead. What giving the extra mag per hit will do is even up your tac and assault marines (though, yes, your chainsword wielding assault marine will be slow until he gets a power weapon or really, multiple attacks)

and my group did originally read the RAW as 1 extra hit period.

SpawnoChaos said:

borithan said:

Unrelenting Devastation only applies to Heavy weapons. Anything that you can shoot with a heavy weapon and have a chance of not causing at least 1 point of damage is probably too strong to be placed in a Horde without a really good reason. Including Pen, a Heavy bolter requires a min soak of 18 to prevent any damage. Most of the heavies require >20, with the heavy flamer lowest at 14. Regardless, you essentially need to Elites or Masters to prevent a hit from a Heavy doing any damage. The one exception is a Frag missle, with a min damage of 6.

I still contend that this is ambiguous to the point that we're STILL getting new threads everyday asking for clarification on this.

As I have stated before, even if my interpretation ends up being "incorrect" as far as the Dev's are concerned, this works better in my games. Using this method, everyone contributes significantly to a Hordes destruction... not just the Devastator.

It also mops up Hordes faster and therefore has a more cinematic feel to it.

Once again, to each his own.

SpawnoChaos said:

You realize you only have this problem due to using 4-5 40-50 mag hordes at a time, right? If you cut that down a bit, so your KT was facing probably hundreds, not thousands, of individuals, everyone would still contribute. The Dev is supposed to be best in this element, but it's not like the 5-9 Mag from a couple of bolters or the 4-16 from a psy-blast, etc. are just a waste of time.

If you want the assault marines et al to feel their niche is more useful, mix in more elites with your hordes.

Radomo said:

Did I say I was "having a problem" at any point?

No problems here. It's the preferred play style of the group for a more cinematic feel.

Also, no one ever said that 4-5, 40-50 Magnitude Hordes represents any said number of people. It could represent exactly that; 40-50 people. It could also represent thousands... which is not the case in most of the sessions that I run.

Frankly, at this point we are going to just have to agree to disagree.