Repeated from another topic:

"Apothecaries are counted amongst the "elite warriors" of their Chapter, a distinction which is unfortunately not really done justice in Deathwatch." (quoted from Kage)

It needed to be repeated in bold and italics. None of my players has made an Apothecary. Which is a real shame. An Apothecary deserves much more love than given by the rulebook and I suggest at least Wisdom of the Ancients at an affordable cost at low rank. I also suggest the same for Duty Unto Death for the importance of their duty. Other suggestions could include Fearless, Foresight, Resistance (Psychic Powers), Stalwart Defense.

That would make the specialty interesting to play, experienced and tough. But RAW it's fairly bland.

So what is everybody else's thoughts on Apothecaries?

Alex

For me, they are an optional speciality module/lens available to 'veteran' Marines. Beyond that, though, they just have a number of additional skills and, depending on the Chapter module/lens, this can include some "Hidden Lores." That with an additional reputation bonus because of how they are viewed by their brethren and they're basically done.

The question of whether they need any mechanical bling I shall leave to the users of Deathwatch . From my perspective, though, it seems to be the case of Batman vs. Spiderman and who has the most cool powers.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

I think the task calls for a certain degree of nerves of steel. Also some training in defending fallen brothers until first aid can be applied or progenoids can be taken. It takes some toughness in walking through fire to reach a brother who is down.

Just as Devastator is trained in exceling in all kinds of heavy weapons firing, an apothecary must have skill going in the above direction.

That's why I think they are underrespresented in DW.

Kage2020 said:

And that would be a proletarian debate to engage in.

Alex

I'll repost my line of thought from the other thread also...

Apothecaries are trusted with the deepest, darkest secrets of their Chapters gene seed. To keep heretical secrets about how far mutated their chapter is, is a grave responsibility and burden which would not be given or taken lightly.

A DW Apothecary is in an unique position to be given access to the dark heart of many other Chapters and be trusted never to speak of what he knows. I think this aspect of Apothecaries is understated in the book.

I think a lot of people look at them as merely a medic.To me this is short sited. As I stated above, they bear a great burden of knowledge and an even greater burden of honor.

An Apothecary is responsible for the health and wellbeing, physically, of his battle brothers to the same extent a Chaplain is responsible for their spiritual wellbeing. He is also solely responsible for the recovery of the most precious thing a chapter has, its gene seed. An apothecary MUST risk life and limb in the pursuit of recovering the gene seed of fallen brothers so the Chapter may continue and at the same time he also must ensure that at least one battle brother still stands so the mission can succeed even at the cost of his own life.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Given this perspective, it almost would insinuate that the Apothecary should be the toughest member of the Kill Team. RAW would not agree with this notion (that honor seems to belong to the Techmarine).

Whereas the Techmarine gets their resilience from their cybernetic enhancements, the Apothecary should get it from a mechanic that works with their Willpower (it's their resolve that makes them take hits and keep on living, not their physical toughness).

Perhaps a mechanic related to their Willpower would fit the fluff more?

SpawnoChaos said:

Giving them a cheaper Toughness advance would be a simpler fix. Maybe swap Perception and Toughness.

Alex

ak-73 said >>>

I think the task calls for a certain degree of nerves of steel.

If that's the particular talent/trait/whatever that works to allow them to operate under combat conditions, then fair enough. Quite why they would have that and other Marines would not is up for grabs. For me this quality lies upon the basic "Marine template" before you even bolt on the other modules/lenses. (Just checked the DW core and, yeah, that's a core ability. Of course, I would have to post that template, which is not something that would serve any purpose here...)

ak-73 said >>>

Also some training in defending fallen brothers until first aid can be applied or progenoids can be taken.

One would imagine that they would have such abilities from their time as a "grunt" Marine. Thus, back to the basic template.

Of course, if you're talking about redesigning the Apothecary for Deathwatch , knock yourself out. I'm just talking in general.

ak-73 said >>>

And that would be a proletarian debate to engage in.

That must be an echo from the peanut gallery...

Kage

Kage2020 said:

I think you haven't been following my line of argument. Of course one can assume that all Marines have training in defending a fallen comrade or having nerves of steel (I wasn't refering to the DW Talent here, btw).

All Marines have training in firing the Heavy Bolter. But it's the Devastators who over-excel in that because it's their area of specialization. The same I would argue that Apothecaries over-excel in some of the areas I suggested.

Or are you saying that Assault Marines shouldn't get any special bonuses in close combat because all Marines are proficient in close combat? Obviously there are degrees of proficiency, even among marines.

Alex

Sorry, I wasn't really aware that you were making a specific argument, feeling that it was just generic commentary. I'll look more closely next time.

My bad for the trait name, but it's a reflex when reading through this forum. People tend to appropriately refer back to the system that, presumably, everyone is using for one thing or another.

I think that you're going to have to ask yourself whether you want to follow the 'fluff,' or whether you want to make certain game considerations that involve concepts like "game balance" or "playability." As noted in a "First Blush" review, I felt that Deathwatch got a bit wonky when dealing with the Marine hierarchy, even while it offered some interesting mechanics vis-a-vis Renown. If you want to be consistent with the 'fluff,' however, then an Apothecary is at the very least also a Devastator Marine, which in Deathwatch terms means that they get Immovable Warrior or Unrelenting Devastation, as well as the choice of Guardian of Purity, Create Toxins or Enhance Healing.

Whether they should be more than level 1 is up for grabs, since one imagines that the Deathwatch are meant to be somewhat "veteran" themselves.

Of course, with that said, according to the background a Tactical Marine should have all the abilities/training of a Devastator Marine and an Assault Marine. Deathwatch selected not to go down this route, though, which on my own behalf is more than reasonable enough both from a in-universe stance (I'm one of those that feels that you should go from generic Tactical and then optionally specialise in Devastator and Assault tactical lenses) and from a "gamey" stance. After all, with regards to the "gamey" nature quite a bit of the Deathwatch game seems to focus around group dynamics and tactics, so if everyone started out the same then that distinction wouldn't be as fun.

For my own benefit, the only real difference for being an Apothecary is nominally you're going to be a "veteran," which means that you'll have a certain Reputation within the Chapter, and perhaps beyond, and should have skills that cover First Aid (trauma treatment, triage, etc.), Physician, and Surgery, all of which are dedicated to the Marine physiology. (Thus applying a familiarity penalty if called upon to treat regular humans.) Ranking members of the Apothecary would broaden this with skills such as Biology or perhaps even Bioengineering (a limited form). For consistency with Deathwatch I guess you might want to throw in the option of upgrading Physician with a technique/specialisation in toxicology. The Apothecary would also have the "core Marine" template coupled with at least a single tactical lens (Devastator for 'fluff,' Tactical if you feel that makes more sense).

And that's the Apothecary done. Sure, it's not twinked out cinematic goodness if that's what you prefer (e.g. Guardian of Purity) and there are certainly thematic tweaks that could be made. For example, one might have "professional skills" that deal with basic information on geneseed being transplanted by expert skills on Marine physiology and genetics, etc. It all depends on the flavour that you're going for or, indeed, the system that you are using.

Of course, all of that also works for, say, an Assault Marine.

Does that mean that they should get "bonuses?" Well, they have access to more training, which means that they're going to have additional skills in certain areas... But "bonuses?" I guess it depends on whether you believe skills or bonuses?

YMMV, but I agree that ultimately what makes the Apothecary a worthy character to play is that, outside of the RAW, they are sword to the preservation of the Chapter. It is a responsibility more than it is a vector for special powers.

Kage

you realy could just swap out the apothacary for chaplin and a few choice words and youd have a written argument for them as well

but i do see the apothacary and the chaplin and the tech marine as role playing characters rather than combat bunnies so they could be clased as such in certain lights. apoth = tactical. chaplin= assault. techy= devestator (sat behind a rapier or a tarantular weapon system....... omg quad lascannons on perfectly stable mounts. )

these should be used more before and after missions to add more flavour, requisiton points or even broaden the available equipment to odities like the 5 man landspeeder or the single use jump pack for high velocity low hight deployments. or even emperor protect, the corvus assault arm for use with titans when storming a fortress.

some characters make the dreaded down time to be looked forward to as much as the combat, and every single character should have their own time to shine even when you up to your 'pits in fused ribcage and crispy carapace with a splattering of clotted blood.

steve

By bonuses I mean that an Assault Marine is PC who has chosen to spend more time training close combat than other areas. Perhaps he's been a long time a Bloodclaw, going rather quickly through Long Fang and Grey Hunter. Which means he might have a talent (Berserk Charge) that gives him an additional +10 to hit when charging, etc. These are bonuses on top of the superior training that all Deathwatch marines already have.

The situation is like this: all Assault, Dev, Tac PCs have taken the full course. They are Astartes level proficient in all 3 of those areas (meaning an Assault Marine has the full training as a Devastator in DW). It's just that some PCs might have taken extra time in one role and rushing through the other 2. Or they might have received additional intense close combat training even while being a Tactical, etc. The advances the PCs get as a Rank 1 due to specialty represent this additional training And besides, a starting character is unlikely to have more than 2 talents due to his specialty. They will only get more as they progress through the ranks in the DW, continuing special training in that area. So the deviation from the "core marine template" tends to be minimal initially.

And yes it seems to me that they are all supposed to be veterans, so I can live with Rank 1. Maybe one could model their increased status by giving them 10 points starting renown though.

Anyway I don't see the game from a simulationist pov. My problem is that the Apothecary as it is doesn't seem to spark the imagination of my players, as in: it's not apparent which special coolness the Apothecary adds to the team when looking at what he can do in game terms.

I don't know if there is gamers who disdain such looking for coolness but if so I would consider that an elitist attitude that I am not subject to.

@jain zaranth: My group has a Storm Warden Techmarine (Storm Warden, yay! I feared noone would take the new chapter) and he's a close combat Marine by nature.

Alex

An Apothecary is what makes a Kill Team perform like the Duracel Bunny. They keep going and going. Almost every encounter the Kill team will be back at full HP. To have one in your team is a great asset indeed!

They have points to spend on all sorts of interesting Knowledges. The one thing they are terrible at is combat. Terrible as in they are Space Marine and thus can still defeat most things single handedly but compared to the Assault Marine, Librarian or Devastator they are not impressive. The same thing can be said about the Techmarine. Not sure about the Tactical Marine, they look a little bland to me.

But compared to the killing specialists, they (and the TechMarine) are missing a lot of oomph to make them interesting.

Ps. My Storm Warden Techmarine lugs around with a wicked Heavy Bolter as we have no Devastator. Great A bang bang! Makes me the heavy firepower in our team.

ak-73 said >>>

By bonuses I mean that an Assault Marine is PC who has chosen to spend more time training close combat than other areas.

Thank you. It helps when the other party has a clearer understanding of what you mean. For example, you could have been referring to arbitrary bonuses associated with a given specialty because they are that specialty. For example, "Assault Marines" might get +10 WS because they're an Assault Marine rather than it being the result of access to a new skill or enhanced training of it. Since Deathwatch includes examples of both it can be a useful distinction.

The Apothecary provides an interesting example of this in the idea that they are seemingly now capable of excising the corruption of the warp, or at least moderating it. It's great to be a Grey Knight Apothecary!

ak-73 said >>>

And yes it seems to me that they are all supposed to be veterans, so I can live with Rank 1. Maybe one could model their increased status by giving them 10 points starting renown though.

That would seem to be entirely appropriate.

ak-73 said >>>

Anyway I don't see the game from a simulationist pov. My problem is that the Apothecary as it is doesn't seem to spark the imagination of my players, as in: it's not apparent which special coolness the Apothecary adds to the team when looking at what he can do in game terms.

That's fair enough. It might be worth noting, or even perchance considering, that this only represents a difference in design preference between gamist and simulationist perspectives. It has little to do with continuing and erroneous allegations of elitism, so as the Irish might say, you might want to reel the 'ole neck in.

With regards to "coolness," I'll reiterate what an earlier poster mentioned—that the "coolness" of the Apothecary is in what they are and what they do. Deathwatch automatically diminishes a part of this because of the assumption of Veteran status, but your suggestion about Renown quite aptly models the significance of the Apothecary to the Adeptus Astartes . It doesn't help that the "balanced party" is constituted of a D&D -esque combination of ranged fighter(s), close fighter, healer and wizard.

Try thinking about it another way. If the Apothecary just isn't ringing the bells of your players, do you really need to twink them out to make them more appealing or do you just recognise that they're not doing anything for your group? Throw down on the wizard/Librarian and give them some healing powers. Just hope that none of the squad falls and their progenoids are left behind...

Kage

Kage2020 said:

First of all, I have seen such elitist attitude in people coming more from a simulationist side. Secondly, I have deliberately not been applying that term to anyone here at this time.

Kage2020 said:

No, I think a lack of cool talents to pick means that what Apothecaries are in game terms isn't all that cool. And that is in contrast in to my reading of that specialty in setting's terms . I attribute to that discrepancy the fact that my player's imagination hasn't been sparked by the Apothecary.

And a handful of cool talents to pick can fire up the imagination of a number of players a lot.

Alex

ak-73 said:

This is why I recommended a unique mechanic for the Apothecary.

You are correct, in my opinion, that the Apothecary does not inspire the same creative flare that the rest of the classes do (strictly from reading the Deathwarch Rulebook). In fluff, they are awesome... in the Deathwatch rulebook? Not so much.

They are highly portrayed as the medic AND... that's about it. The other "non-combat" class specialties are more interesting by a long shot. If anything, I would feel that the Apothecary should get access to the MOST Forbidden Lores, etc even more so than the Librarian JUST to make them Ancient and Wise and to represent their veteran status.

Just some thoughts.

ak-73 said:

And I've seen gamists and narrativists be the same. It's a zero sum game so likely not worthy of consideration especially within the context where it might be misconstrued? (Which is to say the 'Net. )

ak-73 said:

Scalpel of Doom? Forceps of Wincing? Sutures of Necromantic Revivification? No, that would be the artefacts/trappings.

Perhaps in retrospect just giving them a tactical niche would make more sense overall. Their abilities do not seem to lend themselves to "powers," even if this is perhaps unknowingly attempted in the RAW.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

This is not a constructive contribution.

Kage2020 said:

From my pov their niche is the medicine-man. Wise (and hardy) healers.

Alex

Congratulations. You've just described a doctor crossed with a Space Marine. Thus I reiterate but only once more since...

/Kage

Kage2020 said:

I think we're talking past each other. A doctor crossed with a Space Marine - that is the specialty RAW. If you take a look at some of the talent proposals further above though, you will find that it suggests that their line of duty has given them special traits beyond what the rulebook provides. It doesn't make the Apothecary into a complete different beast but these talent help to convey to players what especially dangerous duty Apothecaries have and how it hardens them and how only special veterans (Wisdom of the Ancients talent) are chosen.

Alex

I'm admittedly not particularly familiar with Deathwatch but it sounds to me like you're amping them up just to better appeal to your group. I can't say I recommend that even if Apoths are whimpy as written. Extensive tinkering has never worked out well in my experience. If no one wants to be an Apothecary, don't mod the class just to get people interested; just give them other healing options.

I agree with the Header of the OP "Giving the apothecaries some more luuuv".

However, the existing possibilities should, to my mind, be amended.

First, the medicae Skill can be given all kinds of uses, like "detect weakness" and it can be made a plot device as well for finding diseases, detecting all kinds of tampering with a body and being able to perform post mortems. Also, I think it would be fathomable for a Death-Watch team be requested to rend aid to persons of singular importance like chapter masters, Lords-Solar and somesuch (please, no flame on how these high and mighty have their own healers or somesuch, in this particular case of Tyranid gonorrhea it absolutely, positively must be the PC dispensing the secret ointment etc., OK ?).

Moreover, the narthecium could do with a make over. First, for dramatic effect, I have given it charges. From a practical point, reducing everybody's wound severity by one level and the healing like a potion was a little too much for me. I gave the thing charges and made the amount of points healed dependent on the degree of success of the associated healing roll. But I also allowed the drugs to be chosen at the player's convenience and not beforehand (drugs and healing uses draining the same charge). I also encouraged the players to tinker with it and allow them to find recipes for different drugs.

I also houseruled that it can stabilize all kinds of critical hits (at the cost of a charge) and allow rolls to diagnose conditions on the battle fields. In a practical sense, I have the apothecary look up the critical hits done to the player s, which serves to unburden me of the tables and makes everybody ask him "how bad it is", which is a neat little effect in and on itself. The apothecary also rolls the variables like stun etc.

"Brother apothecary, I'm hit" (player takes a critical hit, says it's a "5" explosive to the head

Apothecary (rolls the stun roll, fatigue damage, half action limit and fellowship loss after looking it up on the table and tells the player he's out for three rounds).

Anyway, that little trick has worked very well already, but I am sure you all have a lot better (and maybe more well thought-out) ideas than I have. Let's here them, for the glory of the OP

Ariolan

Ariolan said:

I actually really like this idea... too bad the rules weren't written this way initially. If they were, I might have someone in my group playing an Apothecary.

SpawnoChaos said:

Yeah. Ariolan+1. Alas, I haven't given up all hope yet, there's two potential players left who have no character yet.

Anyway, I'd like to say this: talents are there for a reason. Stuff like Thunder Charge or Slayer of Demons or Marksman give situational benefits, giving individual PCs a chance to shine. One could abstract of all that away and simply give a Marine instead a blank increase of WS, BS or S. It would make the game less interesting or cool however.

I think given the background information the Apothecary specialty hasn't been given its fair share of those. And please note that the first talent that came to mind wasn't a combat buff; it was Wisdom of the Ancients.

Alex

I think people look at them and go "Oh just a healer, no good at combat. Its worth pointing out that they can become Melee Monsters, with there swift attack, lighting attack and Flesh render talents. It just takes a very long time before you see that abilty to awaken in them which is a bit of a shame. I would consider bumping swift and lighting down on there tree one or two ranks perhaps.

A talent as mention simular to slayer of demons, that granted a blanket bonus to the apoth's damage and Ws, when the recovery of a Gene seed, would of been awesome. Thats when these guys become total monsters. And for some reason i keep envisoning That defense talent where you can parry as much as you get attack as being fitting. Just picturing an apoth standing over a wounded brother Blocking blows left and right.

It's funny most games I play I end up being the doctor or cleric or some such character with healing powers.

Then came along Deathwatch and for the first time I actually chose to be an Apothecary. I just love the character class, he's a warrior of the imperium like most of his fellow brothers but also he has a near clerical position in the kill team.

Where a cleric saves souls its the Apothecaries job to save a brothers gene-seed what is more honorable a duty than that for a space marine.

Yes this career needs more love from others and should not be seen as a gap filler for a kill team just because it needs one in its group.