last night i've win over my player at RTL . one of them take to my attention two things he belive is a big bug in the game. So i'd like to have your opinions about it

First at all. the "flawless victory bug"

"In a few week, without sieging city and moving the LT, the OL will buy new liutenant (the farrow family than cost less if the others are still alive) and keep them in his lair. When they are 3 or more, the OL simply move all of them simultanely on tamalir and win the game in 2/3 turn because"

When my players choose to attack liutennats, befor starting the battle they choose how many LT they want to fight. between this battles (if we've done correctly) the heroes can NOT heal (because we consideret all as ONE big battle) and dead heroes will not come back

so if the Heroes will able to kick-back 2 of them, the others still remain and place siege token or the Ol trow the dice if are just enogh ST on tamalir

Second: "crushing blow" bug

This card, as all of you just know, will discard the treasure the target hero carry with him. So expecialy in the LT encounther, the heroes will loss 1/2 of their best equipment. so they will never able to get ready to save the city or face LT o Dungeon level

So with this 2 bugs, for the heroes it impossible to win.

Is he right?

edit: trying again. Stupid forum software...

last night i've win over my player at RTL . one of them take to my attention two things he belive is a big bug in the game. So i'd like to have your opinions about it

First at all. the "flawless victory bug"

"In a few week, without sieging city and moving the LT, the OL will buy new liutenant (the farrow family than cost less if the others are still alive) and keep them in his lair. When they are 3 or more, the OL simply move all of them simultanely on tamalir and win the game in 2/3 turn because"

Swarming Tamalir is definitely hard to counter. If the heroes wait until the last minute to defend it they almost certain will not win. However, there are several things they can do even against a stack of lieutenants:

1) Preemptive strike: attack a lieutenant before he gets to Tamalir. This can kill the lieutenant or force him to flee, giving them 3+ weeks before they have to worry again.

2) Upgrade Tamalir. The timing of razing and upgrading walls works in the heroes' favor.

Week X: The overlord puts the 5th siege token on Tamalir. It doesn't matter how many lieutenants are there, it can only hold 5.
Week X: The heroes upgrade the walls to Strength 6 and try to drive away lieutenant(s).

Week X+1: The overlord puts another token on Tamalir.
Week X+1: The heroes upgrade the wall to Strength 7 and try to drive away lieutenant(s).

Week X+2: The overlord puts a 7th siege token.
Week X+2: The heroes have their last chance to chase off the lieutenants before the Overlord gets to roll sieges.

When my players choose to attack liutennats, befor starting the battle they choose how many LT they want to fight.

I don't know if this is correct, but someone with more rules fu than me will have to say for sure.

so if the Heroes will able to kick-back 2 of them, the others still remain and place siege token or the Ol trow the dice if are just enogh ST on tamalir

They should be upgrading the walls at the end of the turn as mentioned earlier. This will prevent the city from being razed on the following week.

Second: "crushing blow" bug

This card, as all of you just know, will discard the treasure the target hero carry with him. So expecialy in the LT encounther, the heroes will loss 1/2 of their best equipment. so they will never able to get ready to save the city or face LT o Dungeon level

Crushing Blow is limited to 1 in RtL, but it's a necessary evil. Especially at Silver and Gold the heroes have way too many powerful items at their disposal. Without CB the OL cannot hope to win.

So with this 2 bugs, for the heroes it impossible to win.

Is he right?

There are quite a few play reports out there of victorious heroes, so I don't see how it can be impossible for the heroes to win unless every instance of their victories so far have been because the OL in question wanted to lose.

James McMurray said:

No, it is not.
The heroes can attack as many Lts as they choose in a turn.
1. They move to the location (or stay there and choose a Move action).
2. They choose a Lt to attack. They fight that battle. As long as they did not suffer a TPK, they continue their week (even if they fled). If they TPKed then the week is over.
3. Assuming no TPK, they can attack a 2nd Lt. All heroes regain all fatigue, and dead heroes from the last encounter are back at full strength. Wounded heroes from the last encounter are still wounded though. In between the two encounters they can re-arrange equipment and drink any potions. Heroes with auto-heal (ispher etc) will auto-heal before the 2nd fight (the party has returned to the map, albeit briefly).
They fight the 2nd battle. As long as they do not suffer a TPK they continue their week (even if they fled). If they TPKed then the week is over.
4. Assuming no TPK, they can attack a 3rd Lt. All heroes regain all fatigue, and dead heroes from the last encounter are back at full strength. Wounded heroes from the last encounter are still wounded though. In between the two encounters they can re-arrange equipment and drink any potions. Heroes with auto-heal (ispher etc) will auto-heal before the 2nd fight (the party has returned to the map, albeit briefly).
They fight the 3rd battle. As long as they do not suffer a TPK they continue their week (even if they fled). If they TPKed then the week is over.
5, 6, 7... they continue to fight as many battles as they wish, though they cannot attack the same Lt again, the same week (if they fled, the Lt will still be there).
8. When they have (or decide) no more fights to fight this week (and still have not suffered a TPK) they may Visit in the town. If the town is Tamalir they may also buy a Tamalir upgrade because they ended their game week action there.

At no time do the heroes have to make binding 'future' decisions about how many Lts they will attack this turn. The only things that restrict them is the number of Lts available to attack, getting TPKed or making a Visit to the town.

Note that each Lt battle is an individual fight. It is not supported in any way by other Lts - no extra Lt figures, no extra minions, no reinforcing, just a 'pure' individual fight. Aparently the bad guys are too proud to work together!

before all, i suppose TPK's mean something like "Tenant-player-killer" right? (sorry im'not really into this kind of things, my best is LT, Ol and RTL )

Can you give me some clarifications pls? because i'm little confused now, i'm pretty sure to have read somewhere in the forum the multiple Lt encounter was considerated one big battle.

if the heroes flee they continued their week turn, but to fight a Lt the group must end their movment action in the same location of a LT. So are all Lt fight suddenly ended if they fled ?

About the Tamalir upgrade, my rulebook say "when the hero end a party action on tamalir they can use their grow notoriety to improve the city". is not so clear so usualy i allow my players this action when they choose TRAIN action on a city.

i'm doing it wrog?

by the way, if you are correct Corbon, dont we have a reverse bug? A party of full healt and full fatigue(usualy they always have some heal potions), who can fight all my LT every time, in any order, makes impossibile for the Ol crash a city or win the game destroing tamalir. the palyers always stand in front of my Ol keep so they can block my Lt at the exit, they can also do dungeon and block my Lt become more stronger(with the staff allow the party to move twice a week)

i'm wrong?(i hope so )

Jack and THE Hammer said:

Total Party Kill.
RtL pg 15
Total Party Kill
If all heroes are killed during an encounter, the encounter ends and the hero party marker is moved to Tamalir on the Terrinoth map board. The party’s game week action is over , and the overlord has scored a resounding blow!

Jack and THE Hammer said:

Multiple Lt battles are very definitely not one big battle.
FAQ pg14
Q: What happens when there are multiple lieutenants in the same space as the hero party? If the heroes (or the overlord) choose to attack, are both lieutenants present at the same encounter?
A: Each lieutenant is an entire encounter unto himself . If the heroes choose to attack a lieutenant when there are two or more lieutenants in the same space, they must choose one to encounter. The overlord may attack the hero party with one lieutenant at a time. Only if the heroes are still in the same location at the end of the encounter (if the heroes win or the lieutenant flees, or if the space in question is Tamalir) can the next lieutenant attack.
The answer is directed at multiple Lts attacking heroes rather than heroes attacking multiple Lts, but much of hit still holds. It also appears to miss the possibility of the heroes fleeing, which leaves them in the same location able to be attacked by the next Lt.
Heroes who flee can still attack a second Lt because...
RtL pg15
Party Flight
If at any point during the encounter there are no heroes on the map, but at least one hero fled the encounter (as in “Hero Death and Fleeing,” above), then the party escapes. The heroes receive no loot, but continue their game week action .

Jack and THE Hammer said:

It is clear - when they end a party action. That includes Move actions. Yes, you are wrong to limit them to Train actions. As long as their Move action ended at Tamalir they can upgrade.

Jack and THE Hammer said:

RtL pg15
Party Recovery
At the end of every encounter, regardless of the outcome , the following occurs:
1. Any heroes who fled or were killed during the encounter rejoin the party .
2. Heroes who were killed return with full wounds . Heroes who were not killed are not automatically healed.
3. All heroes are restored to full fatigue .
4. All heroes may drink any number of potions and use any healing items they wish.
Note that, as described in the “Advanced Campaign Hero Changes” box on page 8, Ispher and Red Scorpion immediately heal fully at the end of any encounter.

No bug.
If your heroes stand in front of the keep, they aren't doing dungeons and aren't able to train. So you earn your weekly CT and eventually they lose.

It isn't impossible at all, for either side. It is very difficult for Lts in late copper - before they get an upgrade and when the heroes have several upgrades.
It is very difficult for the heroes once the OL has accumulated 5-7 Treachery points (usually late silver or gold) (most especially the Spider Queen with lots of traps).

IMO managing Hero vs Lt fights is the primary tactical/strategic imperative in RtL. The player/team that does this better wins. All else is secondary.

Edit: Other applicable rules quotes
FAQ pg15
Q: Can the heroes Visit buildings, purchase Tamalir upgrades, or fight lieutenants if the party marker is placed in Tamalir after ending/fleeing a dungeon?
A: No.
Q: If heroes are attacking a lieutenant in a town, can they "visit" the shops, etc. before encountering the lieutenant or only after battles have resolved?
A: Only after battles (note the plural) have ended.

Corbon said:

thank you but, i was worried only about the acronym not about the rules it represent

Corbon said:

DHO!... they will happy to know it

Corbon said:

There is a party powerup that allow the group to move twice, and it is enough cheap to be buyed at the start of the game(or in the first week). with this they can move far away from the Ol keep, and the next week go back at the same position and eventualy on the poor liutenant who make only 1 step. in a dungeon they still can found/buy treasure. so they still have advantage on this kind of situation

a thing make me smile to my players. The first time we've played, they stand in front of my keep, and for them it was really funny go back to my LT and punch them back again and again.

the second time, when i've used more than 1 LT (and used the wrong rules i've talking about since now) they are complain about follow the LT and the necessity to stand in front of my keep to not let them escape.... when they are in adavantage all it's good, when they are not.. the game is bug and i'm a bad bad bad OL.(and we are all over 26...)

BTW thank you again for your help

just we're here one last question.

With doom's power card, if my monster just have a black power die, can i uppgrade it to silver?

like the evolved black priest who have 5 power dice, doom have no effect on he? or he will use 4 black dice and 1 silver die?

Doom or any other method of adding a power die to an attack also gives the option to upgrade an existing power die instead.

So, the Copper Master Dark Priest would roll 4 black + 1 silver power die if Doom is in play.

Jack and THE Hammer said:

The Staff of the Wild. Specifically they can move two spaces away from teh OL keep and back again next turn. Every dungeon is only playable once. If the heroes camp outside the OL's keep from early copper, they will almost certainly use up all those dungeons in range before getting half-way through silver. Obviously it depends on where the OL's keep is, but I don't think there's THAT many dungeons in range of any given position. Once all the dungeons in range are used up, the heroes either have to go further abroad or else resign themselves to giving the OL the other 300CT, which will certainly make him more powerful than them by the end.

If the OL player is really concerned about the heroes camping like this, he can pick a position for his OL Keep that minimizes the number of dungeons within two moves. Or he could just keep all his LTs on the Keep (if memory serves the heroes aren't allowed to move to that space at all until the Final Battle.) Then the OL can accrue nearly all of the 600CT for as long as the heroes insist on camping outside his gate and pummel them when the Final Battle begins. If the heroes decide to go do some stuff, the LTs can come out as soon as the coast is clear.

Seriously, this isn't a problem with the game, it's a problem with your players. They want to be twinks about it, you can twink right back.

Jack and THE Hammer said:

Sounds like your players are a bunch of immature hooligans to me. My best advice would be to rotate who plays OL from game to game. Maybe it will give everyone a little more perspective. Descent is a highly competitive game, and in highly competitive environments it is not uncommon for people (especially people of the teenaged variety) to conveniently ignore factors that weaken "the other side" while complaining about factors that weaken "their side."

If rotating OLs doesn't help your group to see how things are really balanced out between OL and hero party, then you can either go the "RPG route" and just let them win (if you're the martyr type) or you can go find a new group of people to play Descent with, and play something else with these guys until you all get a little older.

Jack and THE Hammer said:

It seems like you have not read the FAQ, as your last two questions are answeredby it. I highly recommend anyone playing Descent read the FAQ twice, and skim through it before each session. If you're playing an advanced campaign (RtL or SoB) I recommend reading the entire thing several times, and rereading it at least once every couple of sessions until it sticks. It's a weighty document, but it's necessary (especially for RtL).

@ Parathion

Thanks i was not so sure about it

@ Steve- O

My complain is about the game rules dont dnied this kind of strategy, so, for this reason i've call it a bug.

With the wind-staff they can do a lot of dungeon and the next week come back to previous position adn(eventualy) fight my Lt.

My players are not so bad after all, but somethime they are like a kid. and the constantly rotate. because Rtl is a very long game and no one of them can paly every time so every new game i have a new group of players, old and new. We are a democratic kind, so the group decision are taken by vote.

so the most smart one probably will not always camp my keep, but as you say, descent is a really competitive game, and more of them want to win. Me too of course. i try to respect all rules as best as i can, even if this penalize me(but obiuvsly in this case i'm complain a little ) but this mean nothing denied a player who wants to win to adopt the best and most effective strategy he fuond.

and as my previus strategy was to much and the game rules denied it, i was hoping there was something to defend my self now i discovered the hero cad do what i previous say

Jack and THE Hammer said:

They can go and do ONE dungeon within two spaces and then return to their camping spot the next week. The heroes' game week ends after they complete a single dungeon. They can do several dungeons over the course of several game weeks, but they will most likely run out of dungeons within two spaces of your Keep pretty quickly. Then they have to make a choice about either going to dungeons further away (in which case they can't return to their "camp" space in one game week) or sitting there doing nothing while you accumulate CT. They can either play the game or let you win.

Your LTs will automatically upgrade as the campaign level increases, but the heroes will have relatively little money to upgrade their gear if they aren't doing dungeons on a regular basis. Once your LTs are silver or gold and the heroes have at best a few copper items, you won't need to worry about them winning even against a single LT.

I agree that this strategy is NOT playing the game the way it was supposed to be played, and I can understand why it might ruin your fun, but unlike the "we wait around in this dungeon until the final battle" issue, this one is only game breaking in so far as the heroes choose to screw themselves. No one's forcing them to use this silly strategy, and maybe if you let them do it once or twice it will teach them why it's so pointless.

I agree it's stupid and childish, but my point is you can counter it just by waiting them out. Also, remember to pick the Plot about blotting out the Sun. Everything within two spaces of your Keep is shrouded in darkness and the heroes lose fatigue (or something) while they stay there. If they want to camp out near your Keep, you may as well show them some "hospitality." =)

If the heroes reach a point where they declare that they are sitting there doing nothing, ask them how many game weeks they would like to do that for. Suggest that you could skip the game forward 100 turns if they like. Make it clear that you will not allow them to "rewind" if they declare they are doing nothing for 100 turns. Then claim your CTs and ask them if they'd like to wait another 100 turns. Make sure to stop in the middle somewhere to spend individual turns buying upgrades while they sit there and veg. Make sure they understand that they can start doing stuff whenever they like, but you will not allow the game to be rewound.

If for some reason they ENJOY being retards and continue to use this strategy game after game, despite the fact that you should be cleaning their clocks in the final fight each time, then perhaps suggest playing a different game. That sort of persistent stupidity tells me your friends don't really want to play Descent, but lack the backbone to say so flat out.

Steve-O said: