The maker of the Dawn of War games took (or created) the Blood Raven chapter as 'their' Chapter. The Blood Ravens have a mysterious past and an unknown Primarch.

Why has FFG chosen to repeat this with the Stormwardens? Is naming a Primarch seen as too creatively limiting?

There are a lot of chapters that have unknown founding and progenitor, it's far from uncommon.

By creating custom chapters, Blood Ravens and Storm Wardens, the developers have complete freedom, with GW approval, to have them develop as they want and are not restricted by volumes of past fluff that can heavily restrict certain story avenues. It also dissuades instant anti-fanboy “I hate that Chapter (Ultramarines)” sentiment allowing the new chapter a chance of finding it's niche. There were many posts on the forums when they put the first image up of the Storm Wardens deriding the “Ultramarine” color scheme.

As for the predominant theory, as per another thread, White Scars seem like the most likely progenitor chapter. World Eaters seem to be a close second, for those that aren't offended at the idea of traitor gene seed being used.

What's your source for saying that unknown founding and primarch is 'far from uncommon'?

As for being restricted by the fluff - a successor chapter doesn't need to be a cultural clone of the original, they might have 10k years of history between them. I don't really buy the 'develop as they want' argument either, by the same token. If they are a White Scar successor, how does this 'restrict' their development?

Making them (potentially) a successor of a traitor legion just makes it look like a repetitive formula in being applied.

My Money's on the Imperial Fists or Smurfs (Ultramarines).

I often see people try to say the Fists couldn't be because of differences in the Gene Seed, but given those mutations could have happened easily in the last 4-5000 years since the Stormwardens had their records sealed, it's very possible that their seed remained more pure in the meantime and since the founder doesn't know anymore, they couldn't go to them to try and fix it.

As for the Smurfs, it's just a matter of statistics, since like 70 percent of successors come from them, good odds the Storm Wardens did too.

I brought this up earlier. My money is riding on the Khan.

Dulahan said:

But the differences developed in all the Fists' successor chapters, including the Templars and Crimsons.

Alex

Fresnel said:

This is as good a source as any since they site the place where GW named these chapters, but there is little or no fluff detailing them for whatever reason.

Successors don't need to be cultural clones, but they do share a great deal in common with their progenitor chapters. By naming a progenitor chapter the fans then expect certain traits and abilities to be present. This is what I meant be restrictive. By having this information unknown the chapter is released form fanboy expectations and a greater drift from the progenitor chapter can occur without fanboy whine occurring.

'Uncertain' is correct that there are many Chapters, some quite well known, who don't have a clear lineage. An excellent example is in the new Imperial Armour book about the Badab War, in which it is noted that the Red Scorpions (a chapter renowned for their genetic purity) not only come from unknown gene-seed, but that their gene-seed lacks any markers to even inconclusively tie them to a predecessor Chapter or Primarch. I've also read that some Chapters of subsequent foundings have used a mix of gene-seed from different Chapters (often including Ultramarines or Dark Angels).

Since it's been established that the Storm Wardens DO have a Primarch in their lineage, and that this is now a Big Secret, it seems possible that they were founded using proscribed gene-seed, perhaps in an experiment to see if the gene-seed of a traitor Primarch could be "reformed". That's certainly more intriguing than them just being an offshoot of the White Scars. Perhaps we will find out in time.

I'd say it's Angron. World Eaters pre-heresy is written all over them, especially their solo mode ability.

They could also be derived from the 2nd or 11th Legions, both of which have unknown Primarchs.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Ok, but imo it's unclear if the 'unknowns' are truly unknown to the actual chapters or simply an incompete record in the Administratum.

In any case, what FFG have done feels like a re-tread of the Blood Ravens - far too many parallels.

Fanboys will rage, that's what they do. Not naming a known progenitor for that reason strikes me as limp-wristed. Successor chapters 'most often' share a great deal with their progenitor, but this is not a certainty. An Ultramarine successor, with the apple has fallen far from the tree - both culturally and geneseed-wise - could be great. An actual example of how Chapters can 'evolve' through time. Interactions with Ultramarines would also be interesting. But no, we have another mysterious dark secret, unknown Primarch chapter.

As far as wayward sons of Guilliman go, allow me to direct you to the Mortifactors. The book "Warriors of Ultramar" offers an interesting look into what happens when a Chapter with an esteemed pedigree turns out a bit... different from what their gene-brothers expect.

Quite. So what's limiting about a known Primarch? Nothing.

Having said this, I don't wish to pour scorn on the whole Stormwarden write-up - it's well written. If it had simply said they were a White Scar successor chapter 95% of my criticism would vanish. With the traitor legion link unsupported the 'dark secret' would become more interesting (imo).

While I think it is reasonable for you to wish they had been more clear, I'd rather they leave the potential for all possibilities in the fluff. Nothing about rumors of the source of the Storm Warden's geneseed makes the intrigue you can devise in your own games any less intriguing. In your game's case, perhaps the SWs really do come from the White Scars, and it is merely an administrative blackout for yet unknown reasons... and yet, rumors of a dark primarch could come from enemies and the ignorant, could it not?

That said, if I ever play a Storm Warden, I'm going to go for a heretical primarch ala Angron, if it flies with my GM. That strikes me as far more fun to deal with RPwise, personally.

yeah think id go for angron as a pre heresy gene seed donor, but surely any of the Fallen chapters be used maybe even horus's pre davinite taint donation might be used..............

ak-73 said:

Again, we don't know when the difference developed. If it happened after the Stormies went off the records, they might have somehow managed to keep themselves stable for whatever reason, and as I said, the other successors and the main chapter wouldn't have had the ability to 'fix' it from them.

Also (And this is a genuine question, I may be wrong), aren't the 'seed issues' in Deathwatch a bit incorrect? I thought pretty much every chapter had one or two things missing.

Not every chapter has something missing, but nearly all of them have something wrong with them. Look at the Blood Angels, all their stuff works, but they have the Red Thirst and Black Fury to contend with, which is way worse than being unable to spit acid.

I think it would be interesting if the Stormwardens were traitor-founded like the Blood Ravens, and this was part of some greater secret that a lot of the supposedly Ultramarine second+ foundings actually used traitor gene-seed or something.

SpawnoChaos said:

I was having a discussion with my group, and we all came to this conclusion as well.

Because the element of mystery, in this case at least, gives GMs the rare opprotunity to make up the chapter's history as they go along. The other four chapters in the core book are pretty well set, but Stormwardens are a blank slate for GMs to play with. Having a known primarch doesn't quite have the same freedom even if a successor chapter takes a seriously unexpected turn in developing its own culture, there's still SOMETHING linking the successor back to the progenitor.

Also before they closed their fortress monastery they were revering one of the primarchs, witch would be kind of stupid if in middle of loyalist chapter stronghold u would have big statue of traitor primarch. (Inquisitor visits their chapter monastery, chapter master guides him through it: heare dear inquisitor lord we have armoury, here is apothecarium, now we enter chapel, please dont mind that big statue of Angron at the middle but instead look how cool this emperor statue looks... sorry for sarcasm)

Funnier thing would be if by accident they would learn that primarch they revered isn't truly their founder.

I'll note that a lot of the lore on Garro and the loyalists aboard the Eisenstein seems to point to the Grey Knights being founded from traitor-legion geneseed, albeit of loyalist descent.

The current 'input' into the Grey Knights seems to be Death Guard and Luna Wolf, for now, but that could change.

I personally favour the Storm Wardens being a White Scars-derived Chapter, mainly because I quite like the White Scars despite their scant appearances.

Regarding the parallels with the Blood Ravens, I can see one tenuous parallel: they both can't point to their primarch and say "That was him, officer!"

Beyond that, the parallels run dry very quickly. The Storm Wardens are immensely martial, heavy traditional/ritual honour focus and plenty of tribal/feudal/highlander feel to them. The Blood Ravens, on the other hand, are brimming with psy-mystery. The mystery of the Storm Wardens seems heavily bundled up in 'what they've done', not so much 'what they're doing'.

Still, it'd be an amusing little adventure. Storm Warden, Blood Raven and two Grey Knights fighting a warband of World Eater, Thousand Son, Death Guard and Luna Wolf...!

Xisor said:

Sorry to necro, but I just found this. Actually, it's always been Grey Knight fluff that they bear geneseed directly derived from the Emperor himself, not another chapter. Garro and his loyalists, along with other individuals 'of an inquisitive nature' seem to have served as the building blocks for the Inquisition.

I'd personally go with either the White Scars (their vehicle charges seem to just be a more heavily armoured version of the White Scar's tactics) or, if I was going for traitor geneseed, the World Eaters (their other info and traits seem to fit with pre-Heresy World Eaters pretty well).

Relying blindly on the laws of probability, I say Ultramarines.

Alex