Okay...so...after finally getting my third Mountains of Madness pack - yay ! - I constructed a pretty nasty deck featuring Hastur and Yog-Sothoth.

The concept (primarily) revolves around the newly-discovered-as-being-fantastic Doppelgangers....and their ability to Copy other cards (mainly mine) - combined with the much-hated (by my opponent) Bringers of Fire...and the ever-present Sledge Dogs.

Basically...turn-1 I can throw out (often) - Magah Birds (3 of em', obviously, with their effect) ...1-Sledge Dog...and keep 2 open for his turn. I tend to also have a Blind Submission or Power Drain held onto to use, should the need arise.

I also feature Demon Lovers (x3) - because their skill drain is handy in most instances...but particularly so when you've got Bringers of Fire which can only destroy Skill-4 or less targets. With Demon Lovers they can take out 99.9% of cards in the game (-only five that I know of off-hand are actually Skill-7 or Skill-8: Hastur (Lord of Carcosa), Shub-Niggurath, Yog-Sothoth (Lord of Time and Space), Cthulhu (either form), and Yog-Sothoth (Core Set Yog) -)

There is also the sprinkling of Yog recursion with Speak to the Dead, a few Unspeakable Ressurections, and some Cursed Skulls // Single Glimpse for creature destruction.

But this time, when we played today, I got to try out this deck against my friend in its first Person V. Person match-up. Simply put, it was fantastic. I won all three games, by pretty big margins (3-0, 3-0, 3-1) and didn't have too much trouble. The Sledge Dogs appeared en masse in the 2nd and 3rd games....at one point I had 3 of them out...meaning each was 3-Combat, 4-Skill....brutal.

At the end of our gaming sessions (several hours total) - as I was leaving - my friend reflected on the power of the Sledge Dogs (they were instrumental in the conclusion of the final game in my favor). He basically said that he felt they were sort of "broken" because of what you get for 1-cost...the fact they are Neutral meaning there is no restriction // limitation to having to use a certain faction to access their power.

His final reason was somewhat interesting...bascially he said,

"...and the last reason they could be considered broken is that if FFG put out these old packs again, or packaged them in a 3-card format super box so you got 3 of each of these (and all other MoM cards) .....EVERYONE would get multiple boxes and play with 8 of them in their decks because they are almost always going to be better than other equivalent 1-cost characters in nearly every situation you might encounter on turn 1 / 2,.

If a card is so good that I (or almost any other players) can put into ANY of my decks and improve them dramatically, that should tell you something about how strong it is."

-----------------

So what do you guys think ? Care to share any of your adventures // or misadventures -against these nasty, nasty, characters ? Are they Overpowered ?

This is a "old" discussion. My thoughts about dogs:

- clearly overpowered in the ratio cost/icon/skill they provide; in particular, this effect is most impressive if you can manage to get 2/3 dogs in the first 2 turns (not really difficult, right?)

- clearly overpowered, in particular, because you can play 8 of them; in today LCG, where you can play 3 copies of a card, the possibility to have 8 copies of dogs makes them the best way to make a deck consistent; in particular a rush deck.

All this seems quite obvious, I'm not discovering anything here; what I want to point out, though, it is that you can beat the dogs, and even quite in an "easy" way.

- they suffer terror icons

- they die with a single wound

- they cost 1 (so even a DoA it's really effective against them)

I'm not saying it's _easy_ to deal with them, but the possibility is out there (especially now that the card pool has grown in size...1 year ago, with only the first AP cycle out, was a lot more difficult).

What I see as a "problem" is that they can help a lot of strategies and make them consistent just because you can play 8 of them (a "skill control" deck, for example).

That said, there are possible strategies for some deck that are not requiring the dogs (in fact, in this kind of deck probably the dogs would be just some wasted slots). Try to explore them, if you don't want to see dogs

bye

Konx.

Good points, Konx.

Like you said, the consistency thing is a big part of them....having 8 is pretty ridiculous...when all other cards are limited to 3. Add to that the fact that, with the new Doppelgangers, I can make them BECOME additional Dogs...and I basically have 11-Dogs....out of 50-cards. That's crazy. I'm almost bound to get 2 (either 1-Dog and 1-Doppel, or some combo thereof) in my first 8-cards, plus opening turn draw (either going 1st or 2nd).

And yes, you highlighted a potential weakness (Terror, and only 1-wound) - but that means the enemy needs to be playing some kind of faction that has both those things. Additionally, since the deck I constructed features a decent supply of Terror characters as well (Victoria Glasser, Servant of Nodens, Bringers of Fire, and a few others, IIRC)..I am often able to send in 1 such guy (with Terror) as well as the Dogs. Thus I may not be losing Terror as much as one might think, especially in the early game.

Alternatively, we had several instances (against my opponent's Shub deck) - where I was able to just send in 1-Dog, plus 1-Magah Bird (given that I had 3 from their also-potentially-overpowered enters-play effect) ...allow the Magah to go Insane, then have 2 or 3 Combat against my opponents 1 or 2 (say they had a Hungry Dark Young opposing me)....meaning I'd wound and kill his guy...then win on Skill and Unopposed, meaning I'd still get the 2-Success Tokens, and kill of his guy....for the cost of a Magah.

The conclusion of that game against his Shub guys featured me sending in all three Dogs that I'd drawn (only by Turn-5 I think ?) on the final story I only needed 1-Token on....they were supported by the 3-Magah Birds.

My opponent had a Hungry Dark Young, and a Mother's Hand...and was able to sacrifice a Under the Porch (sp) - card to look for any Shub card in his deck and put it into play....hilariously, his best possible selection - Shub-Niggurath herself....was insufficient to stop 6 1-cost characters for me.....because I had a total of 15-Skill...and even after losing a Bird to Terror....I won on Combat (9-Combat - Fast) thanks to the Dogs - Birds remaining....so I killed off the Dark Young (Skill-2)...leaving him with 9-Skill versus my 14....technically I would have won JUST on the strength of three of the Dogs, and 1-Magah (didn't even need the others).

That whole sequence just seemed to illustrate how nutty these Dogs can be ?

- and it's almost like FFG "knows" they are OP'd - because they refuse to reproduce their sets for easier access to them by every player....AND they refuse to this date to ever make other cards like that - which are 1-cost Neutrals with such powerful effects - AND that you can have 8-of in your deck, totally breaking the "Rule of Three" - that limits all other cards in terms of numbers allowed in a deck. . .

Interrogation Center (?) for Agency, Neutral characters can't commit to stories.

Yes, they are overpowered. Usually, Combat and 2 skill would cost you at least 2. It's a one that is better than most 2 drops. Sure, you can deal with 'm but they are still way over the curve.

To beat a dead horse, yes obviously Sledge Dogs are over-powered

but not broken. The same points that are addressed here were discussed

soon after the release of Mountains of Madness and a number of times since,

Worlds '08 and '09. Having 8 neutrals in your deck begins to push the limitations

that can lead to resource match issues. I have to wonder what the game designer

in those days was thinking !? At least it was not a 'game breaker' . While we're at it

let's discuss the benefits/disadvantages of white/black borders .

It's a beautiful autumn day here, I think I'll step out to enjoy it.

BTW, a few notes for your Dogs.

1) When they're insane, they still have the title of the card, so the non insane dogs get the benefit.

2) The interaction with the Dopple... If the dog leaves play, the Dopple goes away as well. So it does have the double edge sword going for it that you get more of them, but they're easier to get rid of too.

Good point on the Insanity thing - Kallisti. . . I had not thought of that, at first. Even if one Dog is Insane, it does indeed retain the title "Alaskan Sledge Dog" - so the others continue to get the benefit.

Additionally on the Doppel aspect...yes, when the original is slain, the Doppel does go back to your hand....but this is often a big help to (at least my deck) you because you can then redeploy the Doppel to copy something else that has appeared a few turns later.

Example - turn 1 ...you draw Magah Birds and 1 Sledge Dog. You put all of them out. Nasty.

Turn-2 . . . you draw a Doppel and deploy it to copy the Sledge Dog. Now both "Dogs" have 2-Combat and 3-Skill...pretty nice this early into the game.

Turn-3. . . you play a Bringer of Fire...and send in the Doppel and Dog to a story....your opponent uses some card effects to enable him to choose and wound one of your characters at the story....he selects the original Dog...bouncing the Doppel back to your hand.

Now on your next turn you can (likely) play another Dog (which you might have drawn by now), then play the Doppel for 3 - targeting the Bringer of Fire...and making him (Doppel) a second Bringer...enabling you to instantly exhaust them to destroy an enemy character !

In this respect, even losing Doppel early on - (having him come back to your hand) - is often actually a benefit to you, since you can redeploy him in a stronger form later in the game !

Magah Birds... Are you also running Steps and Endless? IMO these are the problem cards, or the SLEDGE being pulled by the dogs...

Dogs push on the fringes of balance but in themselves work like any quality stacking mechanic... they become a nightmare unless you get on them fast. Also, I have played against a Dog deck when my opponent unhappily pulled Dogs late game but a resource match or more powerful end game card was more desirable. Personally I do not think they need any sort of nerfing.

No Steps ....me and my friend pretty much agreed not to play with 70-Steps because it makes the games 80% win to the person who wins the roll for first turn, if that person also gets Steps on opening hand and 1-2 characters. It's just a dumb, dumb, card.

Magah Birds - though - are okay "normally" - they are still fairly overpowered for getting 3-characters for 1-cost....but without Steps, they are not nearly as obnoxious....therefore, I put them in most of my Hastur decks.

The Dogs...as my friend noted....stand out (to him at least) as Overpowered // Broken because you could approach ANY deck in the game...no matter what the player was or what the deck theme was ...and 8-Sled Dogs into it...replacing other 1-cost or 2-cost characters they might have had in, instead, (like Servant of Nodens, Curious Zoog, Petty Thief, etc).....and the deck would be (almost always) stronger after the substitution.

This, in my friend's mind, is an indicator that they are clearly "overpowered". In-game results seem to bear out how crazy they get, because by Turn-2, especially in my new Doppel-Deck....I can reliably have four "Dogs" out and about...meaning each has 4-Combat and 5-Skill. That's crazy....on Turn-2....and can smash aside much of what an opponent might have out at the same time. Granted, Shub Ghouls or other strong things with Terror can be a bit of a problem, but I have plenty of supporting Hastur cards like Blind Submission, or White Out, etc - to play games and get around those things - or tip the struggles in my favor when they happen.

After Turn-3, I usually have a Bringer of Fire out ...and a Doppel in hand waiting to become a second one. Then it's pretty much lights out, unless they are running some kind of really heavy destruction // control deck.