Background:
Like RtL, the new props in SoB are not actually defined. It is important to fully define props due to interactions with cards or abilities that affect obstacles (like Fly, Acrobat), large monster movement and similar. The rules have exisiting classifications as 'Obstacles', 'Traps' and 'other props' (as well as 'Treasure'), which generally work well.

It is also important to get a definition for 'terrain' - this term is used several times but has no definition at all!
Does 'Terrain' include all props? (Tables?)
Just obstacles? (Fog? Scything Blades, which are not obstacles but are explicitly referred to as damaging terrain examples in the FAQ?)
Just props which do not (normally) move? (Rolling Boulders?)
Only naturally occurring props (Throne?)
Ship stuff (cannon mounts? masts?)
Only stuff printed on the map pieces (trees, mud, water, but not the same props as tokens laid over the map?)
Just about any easy definition I can think of has a problem or uncertainty somewhere. But it is probably better to have a definition with some minor problems, than not have a definition at all!

The following new props from SoB are undefined:
Anchor, Barrel, Cage, Captains Wheel, Cavern Entrance, Forecastle, Hold, Mast, Pipe Organ, Railing, Reef, Rope, Sandbar, Scrub, Statue, Water (Deep), Water (Shallow), Weapon Mount (empty), Weapon Mount (with Cannon), Whirlpool

My Guess is that Anchor, Rope and Captains Wheel might not be obstacles since they have no discernible effects of obstacle type (they do not affect movement or have affects upon figures occupying them in any way at all).
Forecastle is likely just a prop since it too has no discernible effects of obstacle type, even though it counts as elevated terrain (a subtle difference).
Railing is unlikely to be an obstacle because it is not a space type - it fits between the spaces like a wall really.
Scrub might not be an obstacle because again, it has no effect on figures entering it or occupying it - its affect is on the attacks of figures not in the scrub itself (this is different from the shadowcloak given by trees, for example, because the trees give the shadowcloak to the figure in them rather than affecting the attacks of another figure directly).
The Cavern Entrance is probably not an obstacle because it is analogous to a portal space - similarly the Hold. The skull spaces may or may not be obstacles (probably not) - in at least one island level they are impassable, though usually they have no effect.

Everything else (Barrel, Cage, Mast, Pipe Organ, Reef, Sandbar, Water (both), Weapon mount (both) and Whirlpool) seem likely to be obstacles.

The main reason for this coming up is the ability to ignore the effects of obstacles - fly, mostly (there is no acrobat), but also large monsters!
Thematically, probably only the cage is dubious as being 'ignorable' for flyers. Since it blocks movement*, I don't think it is an issue with large monsters.

As an interesting aside, since a cage blocks movement can a (small) figure move around inside the cage? Perhaps the cage actually needs
new rules entirely and 'blocks movement' is insufficient. Perhaps...
"Figures may not enter or exit the cage prop unless they fulfill scenario rules. Figure inside a cage may move around inside the cage freely. The cage is not an obstacle." ... which would solve all potential cage movement issues 'thematically', and reasonably, I think.

Questions and Answers:
Q1: What new props in SoB qualify as obstacles?
A1: X, Y and Z are obstacles. A, B and C are not obstacles. Maybe add explanations for some that are not obstacles?

Q2: Can small figures move inside a cage since it blocks movement?
A1: No. Since the cage blocks movement figures in a cage may not move at all.
A2: Yes, small figures may move inside the cage, but may not enter or exit the cage.
A3: "Figures may not enter or exit the cage prop unless they fulfill scenario rules. Figure inside a cage may move around inside the cage freely. The cage is not an obstacle."

Please note that answer 3 is much preferable to answer 2 because it completely defines the cage and solves several issues while being fundamentally the same - unless the cage is an obstacle which fly-ers (and Soar-ers) can ignore.

Q3: What does the term 'terrain' include?
A1: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles, traps and other props.
A2: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles and other props. It does not include traps. Either change FAQs large monster reference or explain.
A3: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles, traps and other props except; ..... (list exceptions)

Just a small note regarding Scrub: If it was an obstacle, spawning on most island levels would be very restricted (unless there is some clarification I am not aware of. How did you play that during your SoB games, Corbon?).

Probably add that to the explaining remarks above so that they know about all possible consequences of their decision.

Parathion said:

Good call.

Scrub is almost certainly not an obstacle, but we don't know for sure until we get a ruling. We play it as being undefined (so not an obstacle) so far in SoB.

ABout the Scrub , we play in the same way, its really hard already to spawn in the island level, almost impossible to spawn bigger monsters, like spider etc.=)

Mcmanus said:

Slightly drifting in topic, but that's curious.
We never bother with trying to spawn spiders anyway, but otherwise we've found islands very easy to spawn in, almost always very close to the action too. Trees provide quite a lot of dead ground over the whole board....
The only things is that Islands rarely (one exception, when the **** pair of shadowcloaked Spider Leaders split and ran for the sea) last long enough for a second spawn. And with the trees scattered around, ranged/magic spawns are not much better than melee spawns much of the time, so after the first 'free' spawn the OL generally is gathering and conserving resources for the next level.
Some of that may come from having real problems protecting the forward glyph (Astarra, Zyla or very powerful ranged hero ignoring shadowcloak with a knockback cannon), so not really bothering.

Its easy to spawn 1 square mobs pretty near the action indeed, but usually I dont have many chances to spawn bigger than 1 square mobs^^.

Look, I have a suggestion for the FAQ regarding obstacles and props. By now, there are too many props to continue with the general rules for "obstacles" "traps" "treasures" and "others". The reason is that there are too many diferente kinds of "obstacles" and some of them come with exceptions ("corrupted terrain" is empty, "holds" allow spawns, "scrub" is not completely defined yet...). So I've gathered a list of "simple true-false questions/sentences" that should be answered for every obstacle or, to be exact, for every single thing that can be on the board. (similar to the "Block Movement?" style). This way all the information would be together, and it would be foolproof to understand it. Some answers are already in the rules, and it may seem stupid to ask for them, so instead I suggest to provide the full list (with the answers) and ask them to just correct and add it to the FAQ. Please note that the list would also solve some other typical questions (what harms an acrobat? what is empty? what can be jumped?)

In order to make it shorter to read and write, I would use code letters that are added next to the prop when the sentence is true. For example, let's say the sentence is "Block Movement (M)" then, every obstacle that blocks movement has the letter M next to it. At the moment I have the following posible questions. Some of them (M and N for example) could be taken out to make it shorter.

• M: Blocks M ovement
• N: Blocks li N e of sight
• A: A heroe with the A crobat skill card may go through it with no penalty.
• F: A F lying figure may go through it with no penalty. (Tends to appear along with A.)
• I: Big monsters I gnore its effects if their base isn’t completely inside.
• J: It may be J umped over like a pit (tends to appear along with I).
• L: A L eaping figure may L and on it.
• W: It is as impassable as a W all or a closed door.
• S: It allows monsters to be S pawned there (providing that is otherwise legal).
• E: It is considered an E mpty space when playing trap cards.
• C: It is considered a C hest when playing trap cards.
• B: It does not prevent “crushing B lock” from be played on an adjacent space.
• To other regards (not covered here) it is considered to be...
o O: ...an O bstacle
o T: ...a T rap
o R: ...a t R easure
o P: ...some other P rop
o G: ...a fi G ure

So here is my list. I don't have the SoB so I'm surely wrong with its props. Also note that I'm considering that every obstacle from the WoD, AoD and ToI prevents the crushing block card from being played next to them (B), as the FAQ clarification appears in the RtL section (and not before).

Altar: AFO Anchor: AFSBP Barrel: AFCBO
Bed: AFBO Bone Heap: AFCBO Boulder: NMT
Boulder Ramp: AFBT Cage: MAFO Captain’s Wheel: AFSBP
Cave Entrance: BP Chest: CBR Corrupted Space: AFIJLEO
Crushing Wall: NMWT Dart Field: BT Door (when closed): NMWB
Empty Elevated Terrain*: AFILSEB Encounter Marker (unles otherwise stated in the quest): BP
Familiars (unles otherwise stated in their description): AFSB Fog: NO
Forecastle: AFBO Fountain: AFBO Frozen Sarcophagus: BO Giant Mushroom: BO
Glyph (when activated): AFBP Glyph (when inactivated): AFBP
Hero**: NMAFBG Hold: AFSBP Ice: AFIJO
Lava: AFIJO Magic Portals: LSBP Mast: NAFSBP
Money Token: AFLSBR Monster**: NMAFBG Monster Egg: MAFO
Mud: AFIJO Pipe Organ: AFBO Pit: AFIJO
Portal: AFLBP*** Potion (all kinds): AFR Railing: AFO
Reef: AFO Rope: AFSP Rubble: NMAFO Runic Key: AFSBP
Sand Bank: AFBO Sarcophagus (not frozen): AFCBO
Scrub: AFBO (or AFSEBO depending on other questions for the FAQ)
Scything Blade: BT Stairs: AFSBP Statue: NMAFO
Summoning Circle: AFBO Table: AFBO Throne: AFBO
Tree: NAFBO Villager**: NMAFBG Wall: NMWB
Water (other than sea): MAFO Water (shallow): AFIJBO Water (deep): AFIJBO
Weapon Mount (empty): AFBO Weapon Mount (with cannon): MAFO
Whirlpool****: FBO Space with nothing on it: AFLSEB

* Empty Elevated Terrain refers to spaces that appear in some RtL dungeons, which are said to be elevated, but wich contain no bed, table...

** Figures bolck movement, but only to opponents figures.

*** If heroes could Leap, they would be allowed to land on the portal, so L si true. (If that's incorrect, then take it out).

**** Although it looks logic for a fliying figure to be able to survive a whirlpool, I can't see how could an acropat cross through it and survive.

I'm surely wrong but without something as specific as this kind of list, who wouldn't be? I have the list on word and excel, so if you would like me to e-mail it to you, just ask.

I can't tell if you're being facetious.

In a real-life application where all the little nuanced rules are basically out of our control and people are expected to put in as much effort as it takes to do their job correctly, this might be a good system. But for a game, no chance. Most players are not going to be willing to learn those codes, and you'll need to reprint the entire table every time a new cards appears that interacts with some subset of props (like Acrobat or Crushing Blow). That's just unacceptable.

If it turned out that there really were so many exceptions that no useful categorization is possible and we really needed a giant matrix like you suggest, then the correct response, IMO, would be to change the rules and eliminate some of the exceptions. The primary goal of any board game is to be playable.

Antistone said:

I was trying to be serious. I wouldn't have taken the trouble of making all that list just for joking. Personally, I find it very annoying when I have to constantly look at the obstacle definition in two or three instruction manuals and then start looking for a question which is lost in a very long FAQ. So my idea was to put all those annoying questions together in only one list. Presenting this to FFG would also force them to think about every posibility before giving a general rule which then proves to be full of flaws. You have already said something similar to this in another question (I think it was the one of big monsters and terrain), and you are right: general ruling gives trouble when not all the posibilities are taken into acount.

Antistone said:

The idea of the symbols was to avoid having to repeat the same words (like "It is considered to be empty for the purpose of trap cards") over and over again. But it's true, using just one letter per question is a bad idea. So I'll sugest a different alternative. Let's just make sure we get the answers for those "true-false questions" and I'll put them together in a PDF. Not just the codes, but the actual words, something like a "List of Obstacles and Props Answered Questions". If somebody can upload it into the suport section, then I'll e-mail it to him or her. This way, players will have the posibility to see all the information together without it taking so much space on the FAQ nor having to use the codes.

Most of the "true-false questions" that the code letters stand for are already being asked: M, N and F come in the instruction manual. A will be covered with question 4. I, J and L are questions 30, 36 and 38. The trap-card related questions (S, E, C and B) are already on the FAQ, but it's also being discused if Scrub is considered to be empty or not for the purpose of spawning or playing traps, and the current answer about the crushing block (on page 15) is misleading (it gives an example with pits, and then doesn't add them to the list).

So prividing questions 4, 30, 36 and 38 (and posibly questions 12 and 40 as well) get some satisfcatory answers and the crushing block list is updated on the FAQ, we should have enough information about the obstacles. Again, it I think it would be nice if FFG have the list of all the props with the current clasification (obstacles, traps, treasure and others) when answered. Otherwise they may give us a rule which sounds good but doesn't work on every prop. So if rule X doesn't apply to obstacle Y, they will hopfully let us know.

I hope you see this as a better idea. I'm just trying to do my best to make sure we get some solid answers for this isue. I'm not trying to laugth at anyone (sorry if the last post gave that impresion).

Revision: Just added the part about spawning and scrub. Sorry Galvanicito1, I understand where you are going, but it doesn't really work and I don't agree with your starting premise. I think it is a good idea to make such a listing for your own easy reference, but that isn't FFG's job.

Background:

Like RtL, the new props in SoB are not actually defined. It is important to fully define props due to interactions with cards or abilities that affect obstacles (like Fly, Acrobat), large monster movement and similar. The rules have exisiting classifications as 'Obstacles', 'Traps' and 'other props' (as well as 'Treasure'), which generally work well.

It is also important to get a definition for 'terrain' - this term is used several times but has no definition at all!
Does 'Terrain' include all props? (Tables?)
Just obstacles? (Fog? Scything Blades, which are not obstacles but are explicitly referred to as damaging terrain examples in the FAQ?)
Just props which do not (normally) move? (Rolling Boulders?)
Only naturally occurring props (Throne?)
Ship stuff (cannon mounts? masts?)
Only stuff printed on the map pieces (trees, mud, water, but not the same props as tokens laid over the map?)
Just about any easy definition I can think of has a problem or uncertainty somewhere. But it is probably better to have a definition with some minor problems, than not have a definition at all!

The following new props from SoB are undefined:
Anchor, Barrel, Cage, Captains Wheel, Cavern Entrance, Forecastle, Hold, Mast, Pipe Organ, Railing, Reef, Rope, Sandbar, Scrub, Statue, Water (Deep), Water (Shallow), Weapon Mount (empty), Weapon Mount (with Cannon), Whirlpool

My Guess is that Anchor, Rope and Captains Wheel might not be obstacles since they have no discernible effects of obstacle type (they do not affect movement or have affects upon figures occupying them in any way at all).
Forecastle is likely just a prop since it too has no discernible effects of obstacle type, even though it counts as elevated terrain (a subtle difference).
Railing is unlikely to be an obstacle because it is not a space type - it fits between the spaces like a wall really.
Scrub might not be an obstacle because again, it has no effect on figures entering it or occupying it - its affect is on the attacks of figures not in the scrub itself (this is different from the shadowcloak given by trees, for example, because the trees give the shadowcloak to the figure in them rather than affecting the attacks of another figure directly). Further, if Scrub is an obstacle it makes spawning extremely difficult on island levels.
The Cavern Entrance is probably not an obstacle because it is analogous to a portal space - similarly the Hold. The skull spaces may or may not be obstacles (probably not) - in at least one island level they are impassable, though usually they have no effect.

Everything else (Barrel, Cage, Mast, Pipe Organ, Reef, Sandbar, Water (both), Weapon mount (both) and Whirlpool) seem likely to be obstacles.

The main reason for this coming up is the ability to ignore the effects of obstacles - fly, mostly (there is no acrobat), but also large monsters!
Thematically, probably only the cage is dubious as being 'ignorable' for flyers. Since it blocks movement*, I don't think it is an issue with large monsters.

As an interesting aside, since a cage blocks movement can a (small) figure move around inside the cage? Perhaps the cage actually needs
new rules entirely and 'blocks movement' is insufficient. Perhaps...
"Figures may not enter or exit the cage prop unless they fulfill scenario rules. Figure inside a cage may move around inside the cage freely. The cage is not an obstacle." ... which would solve all potential cage movement issues 'thematically', and reasonably, I think.

Questions and Answers:
Q1: What new props in SoB qualify as obstacles?
A1: X, Y and Z are obstacles. A, B and C are not obstacles. Maybe add explanations for some that are not obstacles?

Q2: Can small figures move inside a cage since it blocks movement?
A1: No. Since the cage blocks movement figures in a cage may not move at all.
A2: Yes, small figures may move inside the cage, but may not enter or exit the cage.
A3: "Figures may not enter or exit the cage prop unless they fulfill scenario rules. Figure inside a cage may move around inside the cage freely. The cage is not an obstacle."

Please note that answer 3 is much preferable to answer 2 because it completely defines the cage and solves several issues while being fundamentally the same - unless the cage is an obstacle which fly-ers (and Soar-ers) can ignore.

Q3: What does the term 'terrain' include?
A1: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles, traps and other props.
A2: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles and other props. It does not include traps. Either change FAQs large monster reference or explain.
A3: 'Terrain' includes all obstacles, traps and other props except; ..... (list exceptions)

Comments: Anything more before it goes in the FAQ proposal document?

What about the undefined RtL Obstacles and Props (pg. 26, RtL)? Shouldn´t these be included as well?

Parathion said:

What in RtL hasn't already been defined by FAQ?

Oops, my bad, I completely forgot about that entry.

Everything was clarified there except the Summoning Circle, which had been pretty clear from the start.

Although, isn´t there one RtL level in which the heros cannot enter the SC - so could an Acrobat or Flyer do so if it is an obstacle? But this may be just bad recollection on my side only.

Parathion said:

SCs have no rules except scenario special rules. So I don't think it is necessary, or reasonable, to insist that they be defined further. If the scenario rules says no entry, then no entry, even to Acrobats/flyers. I don't see any ambiguity there because it is a scenario special rule, not a general property.

Hm, if some scenario rules say no entry, but SCs would be classified as obstacles, then a Flyer/Acrobat could choose to ignore them, now couldn´t he?

Anyway, that´s just a minor issue and we can leave it out with no harm.

Parathion said:

Corbon said:

All right. So if I do make that list (using the infromation from the instruction manuals and the FAQ) I am supposed NOT to upload it or submit it to this web (not FFG, jst the web)? It's not that I have any problem with keeping the list for my own (that would be easier) but would nobody be interested in it?

Well, anyway, thanks for your time reading my sugestion here, I know I'm anoying with this kind of things sometimes. And thank you again for your magnificent work with the FAQ.