So, what happened to all the careers? Almost all the careers in the Core Set are Basic Careers. I assume I will have to pruchase suppliments to make a mercenary captain?

I gotta admit this is the type of marketing that could very easily make me sell off the Core Set and be done with it. If I pay $70 for the Core Set, I expect to be able to play the game without purchasing more materials (eventhough I amost certainly would have). I'd like to spend my money on adventures, campains and source books--not things that I would consider basic components of the game like a reasonable selection of careers.

I fully understand the company wants to make money (I've got no problem with that) but there should have been a reasonable selection of advanced careers like in 1st or 2nd edition.

Gripe ended.

Hey Annekin,

Remember that you're starting playing a system that's less than a year old (or did it just turn one?) and wondering where classes from a decade old system are... the short answer is you might have to wait a bit ^_~

There are of course over 60 careers around at the moment (30 in the core box alone) and 10 come out with each expansion box (or did with Adventurer's Toolbox and Winds of Magic). I'm sure your requests will get converted/made eventually no doubt.

Till then keep in mind 2 things.

1) Career transitions no longer follow a path. Previously careers had specific entries and exits leading to 'dead ends'. Right now you can transition from anything to anything else technically (given some advanced class prerequisites). So there aren't so many 'dead ends' per se.

2) There isn't really a power differential between Advanced and Basic classes. For example - with hunter doesn't get 'more skills' or 'free characteristics' or even more advance choices for being advanced. In previous editions, advanced classes meant they were more powerful (higher skill and stat caps/boosts), in WFRP3 there is no difference between an advanced career and a basic one except that you cannot start advanced (and the obvious different skills, slots etc). So transitioning through 3 basic classes won't make you 'less powerful' or somehow damage your character. You can do Waywatcher->Thief->Gambler just fine for example, and still come out a stellar character that has just as many options and hits just as hard as someone who went Roadwarden->Zealot->Witch Hunter.

If you are interested, I know that many folks on the forums use the house rule that you can re-start a career. This doesn't really mess up your character any other than not having a new card for you to get at your dedication bonus.

As a point of note there is NO expansion with a mercenary captain currently, and you can play one just fine by being a mercenary and having a group follow you.

Hope that addresses some of your concerns.

I'm just thinking back, but prior to Fantasy Flight Games (JAY LITTLE) producing and releasing the 2nd edition Career Compendium, there were careers spread throughout many books, but if I remember right, there were 58 basic careers and 25 or so advanced careers (both 2nd tier and 3rd tier).

There was a 255 page hardbound rulebook and a lot of supplements. Excluding an elf supplement, 2e was essentially completed.

3rd edition is being put out differently to be sure. They have "modernized" the game quite a bit, but otherwise it remains unchanged from the previous world and themes. A person could probably play quite comfortably with the simple rules of WFRP2e for another 10 years or longer (and many have committed to such an endeavour).

I felt the same however when the new set came out: where the heck are the advanced careers? Now they're coming out in the appropriate supplements. Probably no different than if you bought 2e with the same number of careers (as now) and then had to wait to get the advanced careers in the Realms of Sorcery and Tome of Salvation.

It's just too bad that GW dumped 2e before putting out the elf book. It would have been a heck of a complete game then.

jh

I do empathize with the original poster in that I'm not a huge fan of how they've chosen to release the careers and in which order, but as others have pointed out, the career progression in 3e is much less linear. Also, unlike the previous editions, the limits to how high you can raise a particular skill or ability based on the careers Advance Scheme simply aren't in play here.

Like I said, I definitely would have liked a better 'spread' of careers in the Core Set (both basic and advanced), but the way progression works is fundamentally different then the previous editions and Advanced Careers tend to be more specialized in 3e as opposed to simply more powerful.

Maybe FFG need to work on an Adventurers Toolkit II (or a career toolkit), with less cards and counters, and 30-50 new careers.

It'd get my money thats for sure.

It kind of pains me to say this, but the approach to carees in 3E is not that bad at all. It seems to be less binding to convention and creates more diverse and separate characters, even for those who follow the same path.

I was hoping that a 3E of the old system would have taken a more 40KRPG approach for careers (as in you can switch career after 5 advancements, not after you buy them all, and then can do it a second time after 10 advances and so on).

It seems a bit annoying to wait for new careers, but Im sure over the next year they will get to the near 100 people wish for.

Sausageman said:

Sausageman said:

Agreed, I'd buy that as soon as it hit the shelves.
More careers are allways very nice. Maybe 30 new careers, standups for them, an extra set of basic actions and the errata cars and nothing else. Should be fairly easy to compose within a resonable time frame.

I take the point that careers are not as linear as before, which is a very good thing. However, I still feel like a large portion of the game has been withheld. I'm all for new careers coming out it suppliments. That's fine. However, I would have prefered more advanced careers in the Core Set. An adanced career is not just about power. It is also about prestige. A Captain is not just a mercenary with a following. The attributes and skills required to be a captain are not necessarily the same as for a base mercenary. The merc needs to fight, the captain needs to lead.

As an aside I would note that there is a lot of stuff that I really like about 3rd edition. Some of the stuff I don't like is because I'm old fashioned and would prefer rule books versus cards. Cards are great accessories, but I'd like all my rules in a book. That's a matter of style...The Guides will come out...and that will make me happy.

Annekin Baumgarten said:

Well overall I just dont like 3E, but I will not use that as a basis for not liking parts of the game that are ok or I do understand as being an improvement. Not saying the limited cards are an improvement, but some of the advance and even basic careers in WFRP 1e and 2e were not needed or doubled up. Truly the only real difference between a grave guard and a grave robber was one had a shovel and the other a club. (more or less, no book in front of me at this moment).

And while it was (and is) great fun to randomly roll your career in 2e and get some pond scum loser career of an adventurer, in 3e you getmore control over your character and his or her heroic standing and abilities (point buy system for stats and so forth). So the doubled/redundant careers and the lesser careers were no longer needed. Those that stayed just had a certain WFRP feel and history to them, such as the Rat Catcher, the most Warhammerish of Warhammer careers.

However, I will still never forgive FFG for releasing two expensive books (Shades of Empire and Career Compendium) weeks before cancelling the game and then telling us they were releasing a new system. GRRRRRR.

And I still want my tome of thieves!

Annekin Baumgarten said:

Ok. Noted. A good point about the 'prestige'.

Secondly though, most mercenaries don't become captains. IMHO the appropriate path would be to purchase some leadership and charm out of career to represent the unusual skillset you're trying to access, but I do see why you're fishing for the career. While your character seems fine (in with the theme of WFRP and all that) I think ultimately I don't think that many people (and thus FFG) were concerned about having a mercenary captain career in a basic set. So I think you're in the same boat as a number of us - we're waiting for yet 'the next expansion'.

I agree on 'wanting more careers' (Period. Basic OR advanced), just not sure I agree that the core set is 'crippled' or the game is 'not well rounded or unplayable' with the 30+ careers in the core set.

Also @Sausageman: YES. Hell yeah I'd buy that! I hardly know anyone that wouldn't.

Annekin Baumgarten said:

No, but that doesn't mean that you need to have a seperate Captain career if you want to be a mercenary captain. You just need a career that has the skills that you want. You start as a Mercenary, then move on to a second career that has the skills and talents you want. You are now a mercenary captain.

Regardless, I find it annoying that almost all the careers are entry level ones with basically no selection of 2nd tier or 3rd tier careers (except for priests and mages) as in previous editions. I understand that the system is slightly different, but it still bugs me and makes me less likely to purchase future products.

Other product descriptions and previews use the "2nd and 3rd tier" language. So if the basic career for wizards is good enough, why do they need to add a 2nd tier in the Core Set and a 3rd tier within a magic suppliment? My core arguement is that at a minimum the Core Set should include a full set of tiers for military, religious, magic, rougelike and ranger like characters. This doesn't have to be (and probably shouldn't be) every possible career for a 'fighter' (or whatever) type character, but it should include a few choices. Many could (and should) be added in suppliments, but the core rules should allow me to play a fighter type (or whatever) through several tiers with some progression of available skills or what have you.

Now, if a good range is in the Players Guide, I'd be perfectly happy and stop complaining.......

Annekin Baumgarten said:

Based on your response, I don't think that you do. Wizards and Priests have a linear (tier 1, 2, 3) progression, but the other careers don't have this kind of progression, and from all accounts, they won't.

I think that one of the more interesting side-benefits of having an alternate format for gameplay is that making our own careers of whatever tier we like will be easier and more tolerable because we won't have to go through all the trouble of making our work look professional so that it will match official character sheets and components.

And I think the third edition career system is just one more step towards getting away from D&D leveling up. In fact, to me it looks like 4ed divison between heroic, paragon, and epic tiers is a co-opting of the second edition WFRP career system. A character who can go from dockhand to soldier to gambler is much more interesting to me than merc (heroic tier) to merc captain (paragon) to merc general (epic). But that is just my thinking.

Doc, the Weasel said:

I concur.

I think people need to understand that "advanced" careers are now either there to provide a clear linear progression for those career paths that need it or that they are a more of a life style choice to match character concept rather than actually needed to ensure all character progress and remain at the same "level".

You need to stop thinking that you have to be moving into an advanced career to progress satisfactorily, and therefore a lack of them is a problem. It isn't, once the game is played for a while, this becomes apparent too, but by comparing it to 2nd ed it can look like the lack of advanced careers is an issue, but it isn't in reality.

Annekin Baumgarten said:

Again, very very unclear why you obsess about the higher tiers. You keep repeating your words but not backing them up.

The reason basic career isn't enough for a wizard is a mechanical one. You can't simply say 'I need charm and leadership' and pick those up, you need a specific arcane advancement. Also, having played a bright order wizard, I didn't feel 'crippled' or somehow 'limited' by not having 'wizard' in the core set any more than I feel limited now that there isn't a 'wizard lord' or 'adventuring wizard' in the winds of magic set - much as I feel the same about my current priest character.

I'll stress again that you don't have to 'play a fighter type' through an advanced class. Because 'ADVANCED CLASS' doesn't have any mechanical bonus over taking a different fighter basic class. I get your point on prestige, but I'm talking mechanics. Therefore I hear what you want, but I'm missing the why other than 'I like it', or 'I want it'.

"Advanced" seems to only offer a 3rd Trait slot, and maybe a more powerful career ability.

It's a little bit of a misnomer (like "Epic" casters in Warmachine if you understand the analogy)

Well I;m not convinced, but I'll give it some more thought and a chance.

Personally, I like the idea of a suggested tree for specialized advancement without the rigidity of 2e's web of entries. I even thought about doing a couple up for the upcoming Liber Fantica, but this dang scenario I'm writing is really pecking out more time than I remember for previous works.

If someone would like to step up and do some suggested tree's I'd be happy to offer them in Liber Fanatica #7.

Burgher > Merchant > Merchant Lord (2nd)

Soldier > Sargent (2nd soldier) > Captain (3rd or other career)

Thief > Master Thief (2nd) > Crime Lord (3rd or other career)

Scribe > Litigant (2nd scribe) > Magistrate

Coachman > Coaching House Owner (Merchant)

Roadwarden > Sargent (2nd or watchman) > Captain (3rd or other career)

Hunter > Master Hunter (2nd) > Taal's Chosen (3rd..initiate? whatever)

etc.

jh

I've always felt that some of those career ends you mentioned, like Crime and Merchant Lord, are isolating unless everyone else in the group wants to assist them in world domination. I would rather see more interesting group oriented upper tier careers.

Bindlespin said:

I agree. This has always been my main gripe with careers like Witch Hunter Captain – to me it seems to require a massive effort to explain why a Master Wizard, a Witch Hunter Captain, a Prophet of Doom and a Crime Lord will together embark on a task (ignoring all of their duties at home), while they could just send a massive group of minions to deal with it…

Having a small army of minions might make you powerful, but when you externalize that much of your power it leads to DRAMA. Best not play something like that unless you're prepared for it.

I allways considered those careers as more of a set of NPC-templates. If you have a Witch Hunter Captain NPC, you need stats for him, and the game delivered. I realized it wasn't impossible for the players to use those careers, but I allways considered them to be something you'd use if you wanted to run a special high-power type of RP. Not something the characters could become while being adventurers.

ozean said:

ozean said:

It depends a bit on how strictly you interpret each career. Your Captain of whatever type might just be the 'leader' of the group or he might have an army behind him. I had a character once who started as a Mercenary; kind of lead the adventurers in battle so continued on as a Sergeant then rallied the bandits to attack the castle in DotR justifying a Captain career...a loose interpretaion perhaps, but it worked for our group.

One thing I alway thought would be cool is a campaign that would include possibilites for the career ends like Merchant Lord and Mercanary Captain to work together. I could imagine a situation where a Merchant Lord character had to arrange financing for a Noble Lord to a mercenary company run by a Captain to fight some evil...

Exactly how they would get there? I'm not sure. You could start with a merchant type characther (burger?) with nefarious underworld connections (a theif). The merchant type would hire/collaborate with a mercenary guard and some form of transport help (boatman, scout, coachman?) to start trading with other towns. A mendicant priest or apprentice wizard might just be a travelling companion...who knows. Initially it would just be the four or five PCs. As the story progresses, you'd add NPCs. For example, the merchant's business might increase requiring more guards and allowing the merc character to become a sergeant at the head of all the guards.

Overall, the travel associated with the trading would bring the PCs to different towns in which individual but related adventures could take place....to further the whole campaign.

A thought

In Gladiator Mximus was definately some sort of Captain or General career, it didnt do him a lot of good when he was fired and forced into the Pit Fighter (or Slave) career.

I guess that is what I always liked about the career structures of Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing Games (1E, 2E and even 3E). They made sense even in a film/novel approach.

In Conan The Barbarian, he goes from Slave to Pitfighter to Thief to Mercenary in just the one film (which kind of overall chronicles his progression in the original novels). In Star Wars Luke goes form Farmer to Padawan to Jedi to Jedi Knight (to Jedi Master in the novels). Maximus in Gladiator goes from General to Slave to Pit Fighter.

Samwise Gamgee goes from Farmer to Bodyguard to some sort of Warrior to Sherrif.

Perhaps some sort of mid-career rank/class should just be called Adventurer.