Im not sure if this has been touched on before by how are people handling salvage out there?

Our Group is going through the second phase of the exploration of an area of space. In the first reconnaisance they managed to find at least two ship graveyards (courtesy of the much diminished system generator). Now the players want to explore and possible salvage stuff from these grave yards.

What Prerequisite are needed for salvage? (specialised crews? Tech Adepts? Special machinery?)

Whats the Probability of them finding an entire salvagable starship?

Has anybody created a random generator for Hulk Encounters and/or salvagable goods?

Does the Imperium take a cut from Salvage?

What other institutions would get involved in the process (Mechanicum? Administratum? Dockyards?)

Im not sure if this has been touched on before by how are people handling salvage out there?

Our Group is going through the second phase of the exploration of an area of space. In the first reconnaisance they managed to find at least two ship graveyards (courtesy of the much diminished system generator). Now the players want to explore and possible salvage stuff from these grave yards.

What Prerequisite are needed for salvage? (specialised crews? Tech Adepts? Special machinery?)

Technically, the minimum is that you need tools to take stuff apart and room on your ship to haul it back to where you can sell it.

Whats the Probability of them finding an entire salvagable starship?

The question is: Do you want them to have another ship? If yes, then the chance is 100%. If, no then the chance is 0%

Has anybody created a random generator for Hulk Encounters and/or salvagable goods?

That would be nice. Hulks are pretty varied things tho. Prolly more likely that you would want to make clearing the hulk part of an adventure. As for salvageable goods, that is all part of the Profit Factor. You dont need to worry that they have salvaged a plasma drive off of a wrecked frigate if all they are going to do is sell it. You just add to their profit factor.

Does the Imperium take a cut from Salvage?

What other institutions would get involved in the process (Mechanicum? Administratum? Dockyards?)

Do you have the Imperium take a cut of anything else? If not, then it probably isnt the best idea to have tax on the salvage.

Other institutions would get involved as needed. Should the players want some serious help with the salvage, they could go to a forge world and get some Mechanicus help. The Tech-priests may want the players to do a job or two for them tho.

Heck, you could make this a pretty big endeavour. First part is survey the graveyard, second is get Adeptus Mechanicus help, third is tow the salvaged ships back to footfall for makeshift repairs, fourth is get a dockyard to refit and repair the ships. Along the way you could have a bunch of side jobs, like have the players go check out an eldar ship for one of the tech-priests, or go get rid of the union organizers keeping the dock from working. At the end, give some PF for finishing, then an extra PF per 100 achievement points.

Yeah, but just saying 'You you want them to YES/NO?' isn't very fair to the players. My rule of thumb is generally 'is the hull mostly intact?' If so, I roll random components, with a 50% chance that each is damaged beyond repair or has already been stripped from the wreck. Then I make the players make an aquisition check to get the specalized equipment and personnel to move it, with a bonus based on how many times they have done this in the past and their reputation with the AdMech. They then have to tow the wreck to drydock, which is a difficult test for the navigator, as they have to plot the course for two or more ships to all arrive together.

Once at drydock, they have to make aquisitions checks, with normal modifiers, to replace the ruined parts.

Basically I make the whole thing a short endevour and then give them a time estimate on how long it will take. Usually repairs that extensive take about an in game year.

Another question to ask is 'why is the ship in the graveyard?' In the combat rules it states that ships are hardly ever destroyed completely so they can be salvaged - so the question remains... why was a salvageable ship left behind?

Was it just lost... or is it full of unspeakables?

I believe that the Forsaken Bounty adventure allows a light cruiser to be salvaged. At best, this provides +19 Profit Factor! The ship itself would cost far more to have operational, so the difference might be what the effort of salvaging it to a useful state might be. Not that this provides much of an example, but...

I really dont think it would be a good idea of allowing players to decide weather the ship is salvagable. Rather I would like to see a mechanism where out of a ship graveyard theres a possibility of salvage and a small chance that one of the hulks might be servicable.

Its a shame that the adventure Forsaken bounty doesn't give exact numbers or details on the nature of salvage crews. I'm thinking equipment, tech adepts and specialised personnel. (Trade : Salvage skill?)

Obviously it shouldnt be too complex as RT isn't really a resource management game. Its just that I can envisage a scenario where the PC have to enter a hulk,with a salvage crew to investigate a strange auspex signature or remove something with salvage personnel as they get attacked. . I dont think that a salvage crew would be common ratings or voidsmen because quite simply I dont think they represent the skills needed for a crew which is used to entering and stripping a hulk. Salvaging hulks I think give gives some nice roleplaying possibilities, but there isnt enough fluff or prerequisite information to explain how such a crew would be made up or work the lieklyhood of finding stuff or what encounters they may find (And I doubt it can always be genestealers!)

I give them rolls to evaluate the state of the ship 1st. Then I usually have them do a critical roll (i.e. realigning the power matrix etc) that can have a critical consequence. In other words the player had to decide if they salvage or try to fix it. depending on their evaluation roll they can guess the amount fo difficulty to save the ship etc.

I may also ask them to do a cumulative rolls (5 or 6) repairs roll, tech no rolls, etc, and aiming for 12 success total etc.

Also remember that salvaging ships should take...well years. At least 2. New components have to be found, shipped, installed, a new crew organized, new officers aquired.

Of course, warp travel times being what they are 2 years may pass in 6-9 sessions, which for me is just the right amount of time.

BaronIveagh said:

Why do you have to be fair to the players?

Why is a random roll more fair than an educated decision on how another ship would fit into the campaign?

Part of my point is that all decisions on the condition of the ship are made by the GM. If I dont want the players to salvage a ship, then condition of the ship is going to make it not possible, and if I want them to have the ship, then the ship will be salvageable.

Either way, there will be an endevour involved. Either salvaging parts or the ship has a whole.

korjik said:

For the most part you want to minimize the feel that everything is happening according to the GMs whims. If you are making all the decisions as gm fiat than their accomplishments feel hollow, like you just gave it to them. There is no luck, no overcoming insurmountable odds, no achievement, they are just playing through the GMs storybook. They feel like enounteres are tailor made, items are handpicked, and their choices amount to little more than a "choose your own adventure" book.

The more you randomize and take decisions out of the hand of the GM the more of a sense of accomplishment your players have. Their accomplishments are their own, their luck is real, and their decisions matter.

A GMs job is mainly to provide a realistic universe, engaging locals, dasterdly plots, interesting foes, and to keep things from getting out of control.. Typically the GM should try to avoid tailoring encounters and aquisitions to the party. Throw interesting situations at them and your players will figure it out.

riplikash said:

I think it depends on if the players are going out into the Koronus expanse specifically to salvage to get a hulked ship. Lord knows its full of wrecks and with a bit of elbow grease a dynasty would be able to find the whereabouts of one, so it can be given as an endevour if thats what the PC's want

But what my group is doing more exploratory. They arent going with the specific intention of finding as ship. They have already investigated a star cluster, found a tiny human warp empire and some feral worlds and while exploring these they also found to starship graveyards. At the time I ruled that they couldnt salvage because they didnt have the crew equipment and I also had to remind them that their main endevour was exploration and charting for the moment.

They have now docked at belacane and making some purchases and thinking about what they will need as they explore futher as well as completing the trade route from the first endevour. They want to know what aquistions would be needed to do salvage. This may or may not end with them getting a ship. So I was thinking what prerequisites they would need to do salvaging and what are the probabilities of hulk encounters, 'treasure' or salvagable ships.

riplikash said:

So, after finding out about a ship graveyard, making a deal with the Adeptus Mechanicus for a salvage crew, finding the graveyard infested with orks, getting a regiment of troops for boarding actions, spending months doing hit and run attacks to kill off the patrolling ork raiders, boarding the prize and fighting though an ork horde, finishing up with a massive battle against the Warlord on the bridge of the prize, and you think that the players wont have a sense of accomplishment because I go "Now this ship is yours"? Or worse yet, what happens if after that I go 'sorry, rolled a 87. The ship is not salvageable'.

There arent many things the players can do that changes the game more than getting a second ship. It is something that should not be entered into lightly. If the GM hasnt thought about the effects of the second ship, he could get quickly overwhelmed when the players start taking advantage of the capabilities of having two ships. Another thing is, if you make getting a ship part of the plot of the game, having a blown roll mean you dont get the ship is alot of suck for any game to handle.

That isnt to say that there arent times to use a random roll. If the players take the effort to board and capture a ship in a random combat, I would roll to see if the ship is in good condition or not. The OP seemed to have a more plot driven situation, so the decision to give the players a ship should be driven by the GM's plot, not random chance. Random chance is not more fair than a reasoned decision.

" Or worse yet, what happens if after that I go 'sorry, rolled a 87. The ship is not salvageable'."

Entirely possible Especially if it his set in the UK as we tend to be a bit more circumspect about just rewards being handed out like mana from God, or has Robin D Laws put it in "Robins Laws of good games mastering"

" The Appeal of Power Fantasy varies geographically. American audiences embrace it wholeheartedly, the basic themes of the adventure story strongly parrallel those of U.S national mythology. British audiences on the other hand view power fantasy with greater suspicion. The English concept of heroism is less about victory than endurance in the face of seemingly impossible odds. UK games masters therefore can assume a greater licence to make thinhs rough on their players " p.9

Infact I can just imagine that in America there would be protestations about the GM being unfair and "we did all that...and theres ...no SHIP?! aRGHHHHH! (Sounds of struggle and glass breaking)

Here in Britain there would an akward silence around the table after the fatal dice roll, and then one player would clear his throat, shrug "well at least we got some exercise..musn't grumble, next endevour?"

These are of course broad cultural tendancies rather than ingrained in individuals, but I think I try to think more in the setting terms, and one of the most beloved part of GW games, especially from the first edition of 40k was random generation tables. I still remember the chaos warbands from the slaves of darkness/Lost and the Damned where under the fickle eye of the chaos Gods you could could end up with a half a dozen mangy grotz, a chaos Squat with atrophied limbs led by a chaos sorceror while your friend ended up with a Greater Daemon six marines and chaos spawn that was a snail on horses legs and had arms which ended in bolters. Was in fair? No. Was it fun? Absolutely!

Personally I see the 40K as a universe where bold heroes resist and endure fate for the very real possibility of no reward for their endevours and struggles. They could as likely find a Hulk with no menace aboard as one filled the the bulkheads with genestealers, but I think that should be the appeal of being a Rogue Trader...you take you chances and roll the dice. And if they go against you..well thats the universe for you.

Of course ...I may be wrong.

The premade Forsaken Bounty as a list of "pre" made salvage requirement that the players have already gone through to salvage a ship.

korjik said:

I can say that having five ships had nearly zero impact on my game. If you treat the party in the 'Star Trek Command Crew' mold, it breaks things. If you treat them in the '40k' mold, it's just one more thing to get shot at. The reason is simple: if the party has more then one ship, the enemy probably has more then one ship too. Or they have a bigger ship. Or more then one bigger ship.

And while most of you are going... "but... but that sounds like.... oh my god-emperor.... BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC!" Yes it does, yes it does, and yes, it is.

Particularly if played on a 20'x20' table. where the entire solar system (as far as their auspex can see, anyway) is laid out.

(and, for those who do feel that them getting additional ships is a problem, have them play the Whispers on the Storm adventure. The end boss is quite capable of annihilating several ships before going down. The party lost a light cruiser and two escorts to it and it's six escorts, WITH the lunar class cruiser's help AND covering lance fire from the station.)

BaronIveagh said:

Emperors testes...I hate to see the munitorium bill for that encounter...

BaronIveagh said:

What you seem to be missing is that I am not saying 'Dont give them any more ships!', but that I am saying 'Make sure you think about it first'.

If someone is playing a command crew type situation, then the addition of a ship is very different than if you are not. Oddly enough, that is something that should be thought about by the guy running the game (at the least, I tend to plan that sort of thing out with my players).

Another thing, I havent said a thing about what I am doing in my game. Please dont make assumptions on what I am doing. I dont suggest caution because I think things should be minimized, I do it cause my players are old-style Battletech players who will try to salvage anything that even looks like it might have a functioning plasma drive. They are also extremely larcenous. They are also extremely good at making their own rewards. With my group, if a pirate raider takes a potshot at them, then gets away, they are going to try their damndest to follow the thing back to its base, then take out the base, loot it, and take all their ships. Even if that derails what I had planned for the night. So I have to think about that sort of thing, otherwise, I will end up in a game where the players are seriously considering stealing a battleship, just cause they can, and just because the fleet they own is big enough that they could probably keep it.

Another another thing: Just because you know that you didnt roll for it, dosent mean the players do. The reverse is also true: Just cause you know you rolled for it, that dosent mean the players know. The appearance of randomness is far more important than the actuallity. I've been playing with the same group for a long time. I know how they think and act and can place a 'random' encounter or trap where I know they will run into it. I may be a bit spoiled as a GM cause of that, but I have found that less randomness leads to a more stable, longer game. After all, the point is to have fun, not roll dice.

p.s.: How do you move ships around that are in the center of a 20x20 table? Biggest I have done is a 8x8 and that was getting to be a bit of a pain in the center of the table.

korjik said:

Wargame pusher things. Weight the ship's base with a coin, use a relatively frictionless surface like linoleum or plastic, you can nudge them wherever you want.

Errant said:

I have cast weights on my ship minis, and the surface is black felt. And it's easy if the table is sectional (which means I can make little allyways through it in sections that don't impact the game). It's full size is 40x40 but the basement is only 20 x 80, so we never get to really unfold the thing the whole way. We had set it up for BFG but it works well for Apocalypse too.

And wes, there's a casino near by, so we have one of those things that the guy that the craps table uses to fish the dice back and just put a ruler down one side.

My players also salvage anything that looks salvagable. However, they're also very good at overcoming ships though hit and run. (and are astute enough to notice when I'm cheating by not having the enemy crew make any moral checks. Or having the enemy ship fight on at -45 crew) Typically, thier attack pattern is thus:

Try and close with the target by running silent.

Launch a hit and run raid against thier engines via teleportarium with storm troopers and murder servitors. Repeat until the target ship is no longer able to move.

Use hit and run raids to inflict as much crew damage as possible. (if at all possible, depressuraize sections of the opposing ship or flood sections of it with death gas.) Typically they also blast all sorts of propaganda that basically amounts to 'Surrender or Die Screaming' into the void while they plug away at the enemy ship with more or less impunity. Eventually the target ship either runs out of crew or they break and mutiny against thier captain.

For this reason, they've been seeing a lot of ships with the Marks of Khorne and Nurgle lately (at least one was loaded with CSMs), as well as Yuvath, Necron, and peculiar pre-imperial ships guided by the unfeeling cold logic of the Iron Men....