Got my hands on a fresh copy of Signs of Faith last night.

First off, the set is top notch. There's some great content, the new careers look fun, new party sheets etc. The gods of the empire are varied and fantastic and some of the ways the cards are used are selling me on priesthoods I might never consider (I dig that Taal/Rheya are Red/Green sides of cards, meaning you get 2 separate spells every time you pick up an action card. its pretty interesting).

But what impressed me most of all were the Diseases. In all honesty crits so far haven't shaken the game up much in my demos and play. Many of our draws are nagging injuries which take a while to heal but are usually minor in their effect. I understand that not every crit involves ruptured spleen, but a nice big gore spatter once in a while would be fun. Similarly miscasts, while damaging, flavorful and possibly causing permanent problems (yay mutations!) don't have that 'belly deep fear' factor.

Diseases do. They are small things these cards, but while I've read entire other books' sections on mummy rot, filth fever etc, on that tiny card they convey the disease in spine-shivering flavor, and they manage to scare me. I really, really, really don't want to see my character get sick. Taint can be permanent, and mutation is a death sentence, but sweet shallaya diseases are scary (and disgusting).

It really drives home the fact that this isn't a ren-faire with elves and dwarves and heroes with shiny white teeth. The teeth rot, the beggars smell like dung, and many of the people on the sides of the street have pus oozing down their faces, and rotting gangrene in their wounds. It really helps increase the 'gritty' factor of the setting and the game.

Just want to say - amazingly good job on these. I dare say there is no more horrific way for a character to die, and I look forward to seeing them in play.

I'm telling you. The ability for a GM to kill characters in ways other than D&D hit-points really is a MAJOR strong point for me in enjoying this system.

..which has me thinking of other ways that we can do this as well ....

Wounds

Disease

Insanity

Mutation/Corruption

..what's next?

jh

Marriage?

I kid, I kid honestly

regards,

ET

ErrantThought said:

Yes.

All Talent Slots are blocked and you got no free maneuver.

But this is a rare occasion that if you get a Disease, you can discard your marriage card..but not your insanity cards.

Recovery for disease is pretty tough. I usually modify severities as well to give myself additional options (example less severe tomb rot or more severe black legge):
"The two types of check associated with disease are disease checks
and recovery checks. They are quite diff erent. The disease check is
made whenever a character comes across a situation where he risks
contracting a disease. This is generally represented with a Disease
X rating, where X refl ects the virulence of the disease or the risk of
the exposure. When a disease check is failed, the character picks up
a new disease or new symptom.
A separate recovery check for disease is made every night that
someone is suff ering from a disease or whenever the character is
undergoing an attempted cure.
REGULAR RECOVERY CHECKS
With every night’s rest, the suff erer attempts a recovery check to
see if he can shake off the disease or one of its symptoms. This is an
Average (2d) Resilience check if the chararacter is suff ering from
only one disease, or a Hard (3d) Resilience check if the character
is suff ering from more than one disease. Add one Δ to the check for
each additional symptom the character is suff ering from.

If the character is being tended to by a character with Medicine
trained, add Δ for each rank of training. If he has spent time
recuperating in a safe, clean location, or if he has been taking appropriate
remedies, the GM should allow the player Δ or Δ Δ to
this check, based on the quality of the resources and conditions.
However, if he has been particularly active during the time and put
his body through strenuous activity or he has been in places where
disease lurks, one or more Δ are added to the check instead.
SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY
If the character generates a number of successes equal to the severity
rating of one of the symptoms, he can recover from that symptom.
If only the main disease card itself is affl icting the character,
then the disease itself is cured. The card is removed from the talent
socket and the target is no longer suff ering from the disease. If there
are several eligible symptoms to remove, the player may choose
which one to lose, provided the top card on the stack, the card that
names the disease, is always the last one to be cured.
FAILED RECOVERY
If the character passes the check but does not generate enough successes
to cure one of the symptoms, then he keeps the disease and
all the symptoms he currently has. If he fails the recovery check
and, and also generates one or more ¿ with the check, he must
draw a new symptom from the disease deck.
SEVERITY AND DEATH
The diseases represented by disease cards are all potentially fatal. If
the character picks up enough symptoms, it will eventually lead to
his death. To determine whether the disease is fatal, take the combined
severity ratings of each disease and all its related symptoms.
If this total severity ratings in a single disease stack is greater than
the character’s wound threshold, he succumbs to the ravages of the
disease and dies.
TREATMENT RECOVERY CHECKS
If the diseased character undergoes a complete treatment appropriate
to the disease prescribed by a character with the Medicine skill,
the character is eligible for a bonus Recovery check. Every level of
Medicine training the tending character has adds Δ to the pool.
In addition, the treatment may also bring extra dice or modifi ers
depending on the cure. One treatment may be attempted per character
per disease.
If the roll does not generate enough levels of success but does
generate one or more ¿ then the GM can interpret that according
to the cure attempted. It may be a new symptom is added to the
disease stack. It may be that the cure was so severe or traumatic or
poisonous that the unfortunate character must suff er some other
penalty; he may even take a critical wound. Or
perhaps the tending character has contracted the disease himself."

While I love the inclusion of Diseases, Insanities, and the like in any game - one does run into the problem that, effects which linger and tear down your PC like this can be very unenjoyable for the player. Here he is being killed by inches against something he can't fight, all for the horrible "crime" of not making his save. It doesn't take long for this kind of thing to start feeling like an arbitrary punishment, especially if it injures the player and a cure is not readily available. (which it shouldn't be if you're even going to bother introducing disease in a game)

While I, personally, see it is a great opportunity for some rp, I can see the argument that it makes the afflicted PC feel singled out and picked on. (I have heard this sort of complaint from players in the past, which is why I repeat it here) Thus, if you are going to use a disease in your game, I would strongly recommend it be done in moderation and the threat of it be more immediate than actually suffering from it. (That is, don't tell PCs you won't disease them when they are moving through an inflicted village, or the warrens of diseased homeless folk ... let them feel like the danger is very present ... just don't actually make anyone terribly sick save in special circumstances)

Jack of Tears said:

Well, in Warhammer he won't be singled out for long if his friends stay close. Diseases spread.

But I understand your concern.

on a sidenote, Its possible though to use it as an excuse should a player be unable to come to a session and he happens to suffer from a disease, you can send the other players after a cure while he is trying to recover. opportunity for small side adventure.

@ Shinma: your concern with the criticals wound cards will be short lived. Remember with the Khorne expansion coming up there will be permanent crits.

-L

Two quick things!

To Jack: Diseases (Nurgle Rot Aside) won't kill you (right away) if you rest, and look for a cure. They only get awful if you can't find a good place to recover, and be taken care of. What they will do (nicely) is delay you and put you under for quite some time.

On the upshot, they have a big page of cures. ... ... Some of which are nice and frightening (medieval style) on their own. But all 'cures' do is add dice to your roll. They don't just remove diseases (many of which are nigh-impossible to shake without medicine just speaking from a probability standpoint), and new shallayan spells that can help of course.

I see your point about the helplessness of players, but its part and parcel of the frightening awful that is Nurgle. I'll face a dozen Khorne Berserkers, and 5 casters of tzeench, but yikes. By the time you realize its a Nurgle cult, you may already be infected and dying. You have tools, and you can use knowledge, but more often than not diseases are not arbitrary. They are what you risk when you walk bloodied through a swamp, or face Nurgle cultists. Sure it may come down to failed rolls in the end, but you seldom get sick and die by random happenstance (it can happen, but I imagine a good GM would intercede at some point). It's usually a direct consequence of player action.

@Lucas: I know! I have to say, I don't know if its just practice, but as I keep getting the sets, I'm only getting more and more impressed with the work they're doing. I can't wait for the War/Khorne expansion now! (time to reset that countdown clock)

Jack of Tears said:

While this is true, it depends a lot on the player and how well he has understood and accepted that he's playing in a world of Grim Perilous Adventure. When playing Warhammer, it's a good idea to make it clear to the players that while their characters might survive in the long run, they might as well start thinking about what they want to play next and look forward to the character change.

It makes it a lot easier for the players to roll with the punches and not get upset when their characters start the downward spiral of niggeling injuries, mental illnesses and failing health that is bound to crop up when earning your keep by fighting the worst the Old World can throw at them. The world is after all doomed and all victories are simply postponing the inevitable.

Ralzar said:

Okay, the issue here then, is the players never feel safe in becoming invested in their characters if you tell them "they'll almost certainly die miserable, hopeless deaths" or even "be sure to have your next character concept worked out in advance!". You are correct in that it will let them roll with the punches more - knowing their characters are quite temporary - but at the cost of truly becoming engaged with the plight of said character. Where is my investment in my character's town or family when I know that it's likely I won't live very long to begin with? At which point, my lack of investment means the game isn't really grim and dark anymore, at least not for the pcs. (it can still be vastly grim and dark for the npcs, but the players won't feel any reason to care about them.)

It does depend upon your player, though. Me, I actively request GMs to make things harder for my character - to throw tragedies in their way - because no matter how bleak life gets for my pc I have fun dealing with it. BUT, and here is perhaps part of the issue, those are role playing tragedies and obstacles which make the player no more mechanically difficult to play. For example: I was in a position where my engaged pc could have been called away by his god on the very eve of his marriage to serve in a building battle. While discussing the worst case scenarios with another player I imagined the pc being called away and getting caught and held as a prisoner of war for a couple years, only to finally escape and when returning home see his wife with another man and a baby in her arms. At that point the questions arose - what would my character do? How would he deal with seeing the only woman he ever loved had moved on? Would he even let her know he was still alive, or would he leave town quietly and adventure under another name? These possibilities excited me, because they offered a much deeper, more emotionally charged experience. (in fact I did have an adventure where his wife was captured by slavers who raped her and eventually used brainwashing drugs to turn her into a sex slave in one of their pleasure cults ... that was a rather intense series of events to rp through) However, if I came back and the GM said "because you're heart broken you suffer an extra negative to all your saves and can't use X ability" I would have been less pleased for at that point it would have been interfering with MY enjoyment, not my character's; would have been punishing ME for the tragedy my character was going through ... and in a very real way that would have distracted my focus of the experience from the rp to the system.

The only question is, how do you rp a disease in a way to make the character feel threatened but not make the player feel punished, or give him license to ignore the condition? Perhaps you tell your players up front that you will only apply mechanical negatives if they don't make a very real effort to rp their condition? Or offer incentives to rp the condition well? Perhaps base the spread of a disease among npcs on how well the players invest themselves in the rp ... such as "the more convincing you are rp wise, the fewer people who will ultimately die from the disease in game". I'm not entirely sure what the answer is here, but there has to be a "better or best" way to do this.

Thoughts?

I totally disagree, Jack. Think of WFRP more like a Fantasy Call of Cthulhu (CoC). In CoC, players are well aware that most likely their characters are going to die horribly or go irrevocably insane (and unplayable). That doesn't stop players from making up great backgrounds, nor getting invested in their characters. It's the struggle against great odds, hoping for the one in a hundred (or worse) chance you'll make it out alive. It's the ability to influence how you die, and what you've done up until that point that are more important. It's the journey and not the destination that make it enjoyable. It's the same with WFRP.

It's grim, it's gritty, it's dangerous. What the PCs do (adventure, fight monsters, etc) is not easy nor safe. They have a better chance to survive than the common person, but not by all that much. It's the struggle that makes the game worthwhile. If they play smart and cautious they might live longer.

Now, you make it sound like they have no chance at preventing disease other than their "one failed roll". That's totally false. They get a roll every night of rest to remove disease symptoms, and once all symptoms are removed they can attempt to remove the disease itself. Symptoms *can* add up, but only with some bad or additional failed rolls. PCs can increase their chances of getting rid of a disease by seeking "professional" help, such as a Hospice of Shallya, which not only provides bonuses to the recovery rolls, but gives an additional attempt to remove a symptom/disease.

So, yes, if a PC is diseased and continues to adventure and ignore the disease, it will probably get worse and eventually kill him. If the PC, when they catch a disease, instead seeks medical help and tries to get rid of it, they stand a reasonable chance of doing so. It will just take some time (and probably money) away from their adventuring. It's far from hopeless if a PC gets a disease.

dvang said:

And, possibly most importantly, brings its own excellent hooks, like find the curative plant, do a favour for the local Shallyans, find the cause of the epidemic, kidnap the world famous physician, etc.

dvang said:

It should be noted that it's extremely difficult to get rid of a disease. For the average person, it's impossible to roll enough successes to get rid of one with a severity of anything other than 3 without treatment or good conditions. Even then, they still are counting on those 2 challenge dice coming up with no challenge symbols on top of rolling all (or almost all) successes.

Players should treat diseases with a healthy respect, I agree. I never said it was *easy* without treatment. I would heartily recommend any diseased PC to head to the nearest Shallyan Hospice ASAP should they contract a disease. The longer a disease goes on, the worse it will be and the longer it takes to get rid of.

Don't forget though, that just staying in a clean inn, and attempting local curatives bought in the local marketplace will give a few fortune dice. Still, if you're diseased, you really should seek a doctor or healer to treat you. It isn't often that an actual disease gets cured on its own without some sort of medical attention being given. The point, though, was that there is a constant process of trying to get rid of a disease, rather than the suggestion that was made that one bad Resilience roll and the contraction of a disease makes the character unplayable. They are inconvenient, of course (losing a talent slot can suck), plus the effects, but they hardly make the character unplayable, and with some dedicated time and money and effort to get rid of it (especially if the PC starts early) it can be gotten rid of. As suggested by monkeylite, it also makes for a good plot hook.

Search for the cure, or for ingredients for a cure, or do a favor for healer X in exchange, or seek out Healer Y who knows of a miraculous remedy for that particular disease, etc. All can lead to excellent adventures, or move the PCs to an area you want, or make the PCs owe people for later favors, etc. Fun times.

The diseases actually excite me as a concept.I've had problems in the past of players who didn't much care for a grim reality. Unfortuantely for them, those are the games I love to run. Ravenloft has been a prime example. The adventures are extremely tough and the healing and rezzing are on the very low end. It takes alot of work on the teams end to overcome these obstacles. Personally I have never made a session that couldn't be completed by the players, thus I never feel bad when their characters die in those ways. When characters are dying strictly due to bad luck on dice rolls, I will most like fudge things in their favor. I have however had plenty of characters who just don't think things through, believeing that every fight can be handled by running in a bashing something. I have no remorse for those chars, because the player himself didn't care enough to make a character that cared about itself. Even in reality there are the heroes of our grim reality. Think of WW2 where hundreds of men went running through sprays of bullets, jumping out of planes to the same. They knew that there was an evil in this world that had to be stopped and they put their life on the line. As far as probabilities go, they most likely should have died, but the heroes pushed forward doing what a normal man couldn't. Offering your players the ability to perform beyond themselves is the best thing you can do for them. When a group of players take a seemingly impossible obstacle and overcome it, you can see the pride fare in their eyes. They will talk about it for weeks, and I think GM's should encourage this.

I have been running the gathering storm, and even though the lead character had 3 critical wounds, a couple status effects, and two insanties he trudged forward to help his group. He fought the odds, his group through out action cards that would help buff him, they did their best to help patch him up, and trudged onward fighting into the goblin battle in the end. Even with all of things holding him down, he managed to use his blunderbuss to knock out a majority of the goblins in his way and make openings for the rest of his group to attack the shaman. My parties have always started out as groups of individuals, and I have recently made players create their group idea and roles first, making them a party to begin with. This increase in cohesion has actually made my groups run alot smoother and helped them to deal with alot of difficulties I had seen in my previous groups, such as the one player who never gets along with the rest of the party.

Diseases don't keep you from healing critical wounds right? They just clog up your talent slots and make your life tough with chaos stars.

Linked topic: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/74629-updated-tables-mutation-disease/