Campfire Mime + Rise of the mountain clans

By Sezhed, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Campfire Mime: the only thing we need to know about him is: he doesn't have a Military icon, and he's Clansman when we play the event.


Rise of the Mountain Clans: Challenges: Until the end of the phase, knelt Clansman characters you control can be declared as atackers during Military challenges.

By Rise of..., can a knelt Campfire Mime be declared as atacker during a military challenge?

Another one:

Tyrion's Enforcers: If you have fewer cards in hand than each opponent, Tyrion's Enforcers can attack or defend MIL challenges while knelt.

You could argue that it can participate on any MIL challenge as an atacker or defender, on any side (the opponent declares a MIL challenge against you, you put Enforcers as an attacker on his side). I suppose this is not what the card should do, am I right?

I would reference Greatjon Umber. He has the Pwr and Mil symbols in his character ability; it doesnt say challenges he can participate in normally (which would be Pwr and Mil). So if you give him Intrigue he wont be able to use his ability to jump in on challenges. So I would argue that yes, it is intended that the military-logo-deficit clansmen can participate.

Sezhed said:

By Rise of..., can a knelt Campfire Mime be declared as atacker during a military challenge?

The event does say that knelt characters you control can be declared as attackers in military challenges, thereby directly contradicting the rule that you must kneel your character when you declare it as an attacker in a challenge. So in true CCG/LCG fashion, we substitute the rule on the card for the general requirement in the basic rules.

However, "you must kneel your character when you declare it as an attacker in a challenge" is not the only requirement the rules place on the characters that are eligible for you to declare as attackers. They must also have the appropriate icon. It must also be your turn to declare attackers. Heck, they must also be yours, right? The event does not directly contradict these other requirements, so they must all still be met when you declare your attackers.

Essentially, what you have here is a rule that says "in order to do X, conditions # 1, 2, 3 and 4 must be true." You also have a modifier that says "when doing X, #1 does not have to be true." That modifier doesn't say anything about conditions # 2, 3 or 4, so they are all checked and handled as per usual.

Sezhed said:

You could argue that it can participate on any MIL challenge as an atacker or defender, on any side (the opponent declares a MIL challenge against you, you put Enforcers as an attacker on his side). I suppose this is not what the card should do, am I right?

For example, let's follow this through. Tyrion's Enforcers say that they can be declared as attackers and defenders in military challenges when they are kneeling. They don't say anything about when they can be declared or by whom, right? Your argument is that you can declare your kneeling Enforcers as an attacker in a challenge I declare against you - or presumably in a challenge that I declare against someone else in a multiplayer game as something of a free-roving attacker/defender. But if the "can be declared while kneeling" text becomes the only restriction on his challenge participation, note that he doesn't say anything about who can declare him as an attacker or defender. So by your reasoning that his text lets him participate in anything, I could declare him as an attacker in a challenge (even against you). Or, if you declare a Deadly military challenge against me, I could declare him as a defender for me (even if you're attacking with him) and assign Deadly to him (the defender chooses which participating defender is killed for deadly).

When you look at it that way, it is pretty obvious that the basic "you can only declare characters you control as attackers or defenders" rule is not contradicted by the allowance to be declared when he is kneeling, and therefore is still in full effect. And if that basic rule is not contradicted by the card text, the "you can only declare characters on your side of the challenge" and "you can only declare characters with the appropriate icon" basic rules are also not contradicted and must be followed.

That's all a very long way of saying this "can be declared while kneeling" exception does not take away all the other basic requirements for declaring a character as an attacker or defender in a challenge.

ktom said:

However, "you must kneel your character when you declare it as an attacker in a challenge" is not the only requirement the rules place on the characters that are eligible for you to declare as attackers. They must also have the appropriate icon. It must also be your turn to declare attackers. Heck, they must also be yours, right? The event does not directly contradict these other requirements, so they must all still be met when you declare your attackers.

In this thread you said that Balon Swann, whose text contradicts the "standing/kneeling" rule and specifies challenge type, can be declared in an Intrigue challenge even if he doesn't have the icon. What's the difference in this scenario? The event specifies that knelt Clansmen can be declared in a Military challenge.

eloooooooi said:

In this thread you said that Balon Swann, whose text contradicts the "standing/kneeling" rule and specifies challenge type, can be declared in an Intrigue challenge even if he doesn't have the icon. What's the difference in this scenario? The event specifies that knelt Clansmen can be declared in a Military challenge.

Tyrion's Enforcer's say "If you have fewer cards in hand than each opponent, Tyrion's Enforcers can attack or defend military challenges while knelt."

By saying the character can attack/defend without specifically referring to the mechanics of declaring it as a participant, it does not specifically contradict the icon requirement for declaring attackers/defenders. It describes a game state for the character.

On the other hand, Rise of the Mountain Clans says "Challenges: Until the end of the phase, knelt Clansman characters you control can be declared as attackers during military challenges."

Like Balon Swann, the specific reference of "can be declared" specifically contradicts the icon and standing/kneeling requirements.

The difference, based on the specific reference to declaring characters as attackers/defenders, is not unlike a card that says "discard a character" not actually having a target because the word "choose" is missing.

So that one is my mistake. The cards behave differently because one refers to "declared as" and the other does not. The event lets Clansmen without the military icon be declared as attackers, but Tyrion's Enforcers must follow all other rule restrictions (including icon, control, etc.) for being declared. I had assumed they were the same and only paid attention to the wording of the character.

It's crystal clear now. Thanks ktom gui%C3%B1o.gif

ktom, you are a legend among us mere mortals. I think I am going to read the rulebook and FAQ again, these small details can make a huge difference in game.

Ok, so Tyrion's Enforcers can't do weird things, but Campfire Mime can be declared as an attacker in MIL challenges if you play that event, right? Thanks, everything's clear now :)

Sezhed said:

Ok, so Tyrion's Enforcers can't do weird things, but Campfire Mime can be declared as an attacker in MIL challenges if you play that event, right?