...do everything you can to chain him down....He's going to feel down, and underpowered.....and something to fear about anyone that feels backed into a corner.....Players find a way to do things that **** their GM over when they feel bullied, that's one thing I've learned. You remember Jurassic Park? "Life will find a way"

DEAR GODS you are so right, about a year ago I actually hear a couple of my players actually call it "**** the GM" as a kind of secondary game to the one I was running. This pissed me off more than a little because it ment that they were playing to crew around with the story and not actually play their characters. Since then I've stopped trying to tailor the game to what the players were doing at the time and started more just planning out when and where things would happen and where people would be and how they would react to different situations. This has led to less "**** the GM" mini-games among my players and has thrown in a more realistic aspect for my players becuase unless they actually pay attention and do what needs to be done cites may be destroyed and players may die. (both have happened BTW) I have had players fail campaigns before becuase of this, they are usually not to happy, but I think its more fun to leave the gloves off and let things actually play out.

On a further not, the one player that was really inciting the "**** the GM" sentiment is no longer around for my games, mainly becuse he became and arse and had a falling out with pretty much everyone in the group, but still not there. Once in a while the players still try to mess with me but since I run the game a bit differently now the only thing they can do to actually mess up the campaigns is to just kill themselves, than what good would that do them? I actually had one who wanted to crash 2 continents together to try to wipe out two different factions of people. Sure this would change the story a bit, but hey if he can actually figure out how to do it in game, and not die in the process, feel free, might be fun to watch if nothing else :-)

Fettering. By RAW, anyone can fetter. Combined with invocation, add willpower bonus, and most 4+ can safely make it through major powers without a threat. What am I missing?

AppliedCheese said:

No, the RAW for pre ascension characters doesn't include those rules at all. And when ascension brings those rules up it's prefaced with "If a psyker survives long enough to be elevated to primaris he learns to....".

Fettered/unfettered/push for all DH psykers is a houserule.

Graspar said:

The only Careers in the game so far that by RAW can use Fettered/Unfettered/Push are Astropaths, Primaris Psyker and Space Marine Librarian. I have avoided house-ruling access to other psykers deliberately so that "pure psyker" characters continue to have "something special" compared to their more hybrid co-workers who picked up some wytchcraft along the way along with a side of fries. With a weird enough character development path in Ascention the only DH career that can't evolve into a psyker is a Techpriest thanks to transition packages, Interrogator and Inquisitor (plus Adept).

ZillaPrime said:

Actually, that's not true.

Under the Rogue Trader rules (which we're including if you're including RAW Astropaths) any psyker, even rogue psykers, can and do use fettered, unfettered and push. Rogue Trader, page 157, table 6-1 very clearly has two rows, one for "Astropaths and other Sanctioned Psykers" and the other for "Renegade Psykers and Sorcerers."

Now, the Dark Heresy rules are different. The core rules make no mention of fettered, unfettered or push (because the orginal DH designers did not develop them) , though the Ascension expansion does (though the implication seems to be that these rules are only for Ascended psykers, maybe even only Primaris Psykers...I'm not 100% sure as I don't own Ascension). So I think it is reasonable to say, by the RAW, Astropaths in Dark Heresy (as seen in Dramatis Personae, page 336) would not be able to use fettered, unfetter or push unless they are being treated as Ascended psykers.

While going up against untouchables every time does seem a little much, maybe consider making them part of a quest? I take it your players work for an inquisitor? If so, maybe have them shopped out to a senior throne agent or acolyte under the inquisitor, tasked with finding a untouchable and bringing them over to the inquisition? Make the mission details something like they have to protect and escort the untouchable, so he is in constant contact with your psyker, or allow a personal bond of friendship/trust/infatuation develop between the untouchable and the psyker, so that when their training is complete, they request working with the player's cell on a regular basis? Throw in some an angry mob of citizens to drive off/harm the unlucky individual? Give players some potential civilian casualties to deal with?

Out of curiosity, what sanctioning effect did your psyker player roll? If it is relatively mundane, maybe have that develop into something more serious the more powerful he gets? Or cause an existing condition of his to escalate? Fits in public or during crucial moments? Maybe even gain ANOTHER condition?

Or you could always try the peer pressure method. Have a cadre of battle psykers or some group of reasonably powerful, influential psychics/ inquisitors/interrogators question him, put him through some tests to determine his soundness of mind and soul, (if insanity and corruption are beyond a certain point he needs to go get scrubbed of his corrption with a penalty to some of his characteristics?) Or if he is really far gone, or his PP rolls get apocalyptic and cause serious collateral damage, have him mind cleansed? Though that might be a little harsh, and if they've put lots of time and effort into creating this guy, i doubt they'd be too thrilled.

Its hard to punish a player for being lucky with their rolls. When my group first cracked open DH, we used the provided adventure. At the final confrontation, my friend's feral assassin with hunting rifle rolled about four 0's on his damage roll, taking the final demon out with a headshot. the GM at the time gave him some considerable rewards for effectively "shooting Chaos in the face". Yet the same GM, when running our 1st edition WFRP, or Warhammer Quest games, would continually pit us against multiple greater monsters (Greater Demons of Khorne, Dragons, etc, ) in the same dungeon or adventure because for some reason we kept surviving. Eventually he stopped bothering with 'story' and used every quest as an attempt to kill us, which resulted in some rather quick disinterest in his GMing methods. So you need to ensure you keep story right up there, despite your desires to balance out or tone his character down.

I think i got a little sidetracked there.

I have to admit I missed something when I read the first post.

(I know SOMEONE out there is thinking 'this could be an historic occasion' {shut up Zilla!}, but...)

In your description of the combat, round 4 has your Psyker healing someone for 18 and then another for 14? This happened in that same round? Not possible, as the 'Seal Wounds' ability can target only one character at a time, and a Psyker can activate only ONE ability per round, period, even if they are half actions (such as this power is).

So the Psyker might argue that the other half action is wasted. Not true as he could start an Invocation, finish it the next round, and then heal another target. But I digress (again!)

But I have to admit I can't remember where the rule is that states only ONE Psy power per turn. Anyone out there who can help me out on this one?

Who knows, maybe it's just a house rule where I play. But even if so, it would go a long way in slowing down your Psyker either way.

In your description of the combat, round 4 has your Psyker healing someone for 18 and then another for 14? This happened in that same round? Not possible, as the 'Seal Wounds' ability can target only one character at a time, and a Psyker can activate only ONE ability per round, period, even if they are half actions (such as this power is).

Not quite, overbleed allows you to target another character, extend range or heal more for the already targeted characters.

Hmmm. Upon further review....

You're right, the book does so state.

OTH, it must be something my group decided on, and I missed as a house rule, because I know I tried healing another target at the same time once and being told "No, you can't do that." That or it was one of those mysterious 'errata' that never made it into print, but someone swears is true.

Well lets looks at the strengths and weaknesses of the psyker.

Pro-

Good combat talents in either career paths

Blows **** up

Can heal people

Many other potentially easy-ways around difficult problems

Strong willpower

Relatively good amount of support and knowledge skills

Con-

Very little constitution advances

Blows themselves up every now and then

Lack of long range on psy-powers

Accumulates a lot of corruption and insanity points with perils

Mediocre social skills

People want to burn you... even if you dont deserve it right at that point in time

Most of the problems GM's have with psykers is around a lack of understanding of the way psy powers function, the environments/society they work in and the brutal RAW enforcement of the mechanics. You dont give the psyker an inch, (thats why he's got fate points) you dont under any circumstances let them have a nice day in society and while their powers are formidable, they do come at a price and that price is accumulating a lot of insanity points and corruption which under no circumstances should you hold back from dishing out. Also, at some point in their career, you should have a horde of angry peasents actually have a good go at burning him alive when they're not treating him like he's got contagious airborne vectored herpes every other waking hour. That may sound mean and unwarranted, but thats the 40k society and if he complains that he's being victimised... well tough ****, go cry to the politically correct police, oh wait, they dont exist.

Mechanically, go through the career and their powers. One of the first things you'll notice aside from the eye bleedingly bad spellink n' gramar, is that the career is arranged like someone just went crazy and its all over the shop, complete with shrieking monkey noises.... but mostly you'll notice that they don't really get to use a lot of the more hurty guns, which is a very good thing. They also dont have a lot of wounds. I've got an ascended character built from scratch that has about 14 wounds after taking as many advances as I could and the only gun it can use is stub pistols, which is not a good thing because sometimes very big guns are at least more discrete and easier to live with than a firestorm or lots of lightning melting people. Even worse, you might be able to dish out some damage, but you sure as heck cant take any.

Gank the psyker first is standard protocol for everyone... everyone wants a chunk of him and a lot of things make a b-line right for them that no one wants to have to deal with, like daemons, dark eldar and enslavers, very bad things.

Looking at the errata and powers- a lot of them have been ammended with different thresholds and have had their effects altered. But mostly, its the short range which isn't a problem in a streetfight in a back alley, but if anyone gets your number- even with something as simple as an assault or las rifle out to long range, chances are most of the time you cant retaliate. So yes, the psyker can crack a tank in half and blow up half a platoon of imperial guard, but the mechanical reality of this situation is that there is no reason why they should ever get that close in the first place without getting their arsehole shot off.

Keeping in mind, though, that psykers don't wander around with a big "I'm a Witch, Burn ME!" sign on their chests. In most situations people are not going to be aware the character is a psyker, and thus treat them no differently from anyone else. Likewise, unless the baddie has a psyker detecting ability he will not know who the psyker is in a party until said individual has done something to pick themselves out. (and then it depends on how obvious he was about it and if the baddie is too otherwise occupied to notice which of the targets did it) This isn't some cartoon where all magic user types walk around wearing pointed hats and starry robes - a psyker of even mediocre intelligence is going to dress himself just like everyone else, and cover up any visible scars left by his trip to Holy Terra.

This doesn't mean he won't eventually be noticed if he uses his powers often enough and in plain sight ... but that is where discretion comes into play. The longer you can put off people discovering what you are, the better (and longer) your life will be.

Jack of Tears said:

And that comes, full circle, back to the importance of showing little to no leeway with Perils. Once a nice Banshee howl gets off, the cats outta the bag. Make the psyker hesitate to use his powers in large crowds, or even small but well-armed crowds. Have the enemies react to him once they realize there's funny business.

want a fast fix. I had the same problem with a psyker in my group...

Try using Weaken Veil a minor power from the book, that should scare him pretty good after he pops a couple of Psychic phenomena while trying to turn invisible. Using a Chaos sorcerer with that power up is always fun. Hells that power should be in effect when dealing with haos anyway (it usually was for me anyway) After I did that I hade him so scared of using his owerd he fell back onto his blessed flamer faster than an ork on a can of Dkkabrew.

If you're not using Chaos as an enemy there are stil plenty of reasons for weaken veil to be around Orks generate a disturbance in the warp when they Waaaagh!, Tau can have all sorts of veil weakening devices as they expirement with the warp (reference the Medusa V campagin, and my own chronicle). In the Imperium in general there a re literally thousands of sacred artifacts that can reduce or negate psychic powers.

or you can use another trick that I like to use when the acolytes had to keep a low profile on a populous world.

House rule:

Wytchhound (200xp) Talent

Wether through long exposure to psykers or an inborn intuition the character is able to locate and identify psykers with remarkable skill. With this talent a creature may 'sniff-out' psychic taint by making a difficult (+0) perception roll when within their WP bonus in metres from a psyker. This becomes an Easy task (+30) if the psyker is maintaining a power at the time. It is a full round action to use this power.

No Arbites facility would be without a few people with these talents at any Pricinct house.

and if that doesn't work you can always have enemy psykers use Psyinscience to reduce the effectiveness of powers.

Hmm, there's a bit of a precedent in RT for that plan, Winterreich.

That is: Footfallen PCs start with, amongst other things, the Psyniscience talent, despite not being psykers. I see no reason that couldn't happen elsewhere either.

For instance, the odd nature of Spectoris, I'd be tempted to suggest 'Dreamers', a subtype of Spectorans, who have Psyniscience as an untrained basic skill and also constitute Wyrds (as per the Radical's Handbook), but whose only power is 'Weaken the Veil'. It's not a proper fix by any means, but it does allow the GM to offer, now and then, foes who are somewhat more perplexing and complicated for psyker-bearing parties to deal with.

One way of throwing lots of Nulls at your players without breaking the 1-in-1e6 setting would be to have your players encounter the Slaught. Not only are they terrifying for the entire party these aliens are psychic nulls and would pose an intersting challenge.

I've not had any problems with players using too much healing in my games (so far) but taking a leaf out of the Holocaust power might help. Perhaps some chaos sorcerer is loosing stange attacks that flay the soul, preventing healing from a psychic source. Anti-psi toxins could be fired at players (might be a bit unfair to target the psyker directly) which resist the healing attempts. Overuse of the above again might look like unfairly penalising the psyker for choosing/rolling their character class.

In a campaign I am actually a player at now, we have a psycher, and we don't have this problem with him being overpowered or overshading the other PC's. I think this has to do with two facts:

1. He plays his psycher really well, knowing that he wields the power of the world in his hands, and he can be swallowed by it in an instance if he isn't really really careful.

2. The other PC's is afraid of him going down that long road that EVERY psycher will eventually go. The fact that it can happen in an instant just means that the psycher can be shot the second one of the PC's thinks that he has started on that horrible path.

If either the psycher or the other players don't play that danger out, a psycher is just a very powerful class to play, with no drawbacks. The Perils of the Warp needs to be played out strictly, with no mercy. It is the weight on the scale that balances the class. Also, it is a fact that a demonhost can merge out of a some bad rolls from the psycher, and would most likely mean the death of several PC's.

I guess one of the main issues is that many think of a psycher and the whole "magic" thing in the warhammer 40k universe as with spellcasters from different systems and settings. They forget the whole danger of what a psycher actually do, and the effect it has... not to mention how everyone distrusts them and might just kill them for what they are and can do.

Denmar - Invocations are not an Extended Action, they cannot do half an Invocation on one turn and finish it on another. Otherwise you open up the infinite chaining of invocated half action psyker abilities as you stated. But yeah, they cant do that. Seal Wounds can target multiple characters with overbleed effect, which if you are allowing extended action invocations is believable to overbleed.

Jack of Tears is right here though - psykers face massive social stigmata, so often they will not try to make it too obvious they are a psyker. Players have the advantage most psykers in the setting don't as they are trained, and can just ... Not use their abilities and its unlikely weird stuff is going to begin happening around them. However, setting wise psyker does not tend to be subtle - one of the iconic imagery of a psyker in 40k is of light burning behind their eyes/mouth when they channel the warp. Warp energy crackles all over the place, yadda. Thats how I tend to treat it unless its blatantly a subtle power. It limits what kind of dickery a psyker can get away without making himself too obvious, and it can be.. Frankly, cool. For example: Weapon Jinx doesn't have to simply be "And bam! Their guns stop working!" it can be "Eldritch warp energy crackles over the Boltgun as the metal groans, a subtle shiver going through the targets hand as the internal workings tear at themselves" yadda yadda. I find that doubly useful because it limits a psyker going into a social situation or a tense situation and going "Lol, I automatically disable all of their weapons, and they don't know until they go to fire!" which is just.. Anticlimatic.

I know the issue with Seal Wounds and multiple targets via Overbleed has been addressed, but someone asked where in the rules it mentioned one ability per round. That information can be found in DH Errata 3.0 - page 9:

The first paragraph in the Using Psychic Powers section starting on page 161 should include the addition: "Making a Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else a psyker can do in a round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per Round with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability."

Anyhow, I run DH games, and I play a psyker in one game as well. I think sticking with the stock Psy Phenomena/Perils of the Warp RAW goes a long way toward keeping Psykers from running wild. My psyker has a nice WP bonus and all, but I am concerned about rolling for my PT every time. I generally use Psyniscience quite a bit, and I try to avoid using psyker powers unless *really* necessary. My character started with 'Warp Touched' so he came out of the box with corruption points and a Malignancy, which endears him so to the local populace and Puritanical members of the Holy Ordos wherever he finds himself without a single Power being used.

I don't know if I'd go so far as using in-game beatsticks like blunts with Angelus Bolt Carbines or Officio Assassinorum trainees trying to off your player's character to keep him under control, but you certainly can make sure that the NPCs everywhere he goes react in the way that they should.

Make sure that virtually every member of the Imperium at best doesn't like him, and at worst may think he's a witch or allied with the Dark Powers if he openly identifies himself as as psyker by word or deed. Have every two-bit heretic and cultist around use him as a scapegoat for their own actions if he openly displays his power.

Puritanical Ordos members will most certainly be keeping an eye on him for the slightest hint that he's falling to corruption, and some of the really zealous Puritans may decide that even if he's not a threat at this very moment, he will eventually become one and that he needs to be put down for the betterment of the Imperium now.

In short, make the player pay for demonstrating just how powerful he is in a setting where psykers with just a touch of power can be lynched by a mob for being a witch or a heretic. First, though, I'd suggest you have a discussion with the player, and let him know that perhaps you haven't been running things the way they should be, but that's about to change. Give him (and the other players who are no doubt used to him helping them out) a chance to get used to a psyker who isn't the equivalent of a DnD wizard throwing fireballs left and right. And for Throne's sake, use the Psy Phenomena / Perils rules as written - one roll for each 9, as someone mentioned earlier do not let the player spend a Fate Point to negate the test, and don't gloss over the effects that even the most mild-mannered phenomenon (ethereal stench, for example) will have on a deeply superstitious and fearful people.

MKX said:

Agreed. And heaven forbid the psyker player fall back on that good old classic "I kill everyone who gets in my way" player mentality, because then he'll just get branded a heretic and have the actual Imperium hunting him, too. No matter how much damage he can dish out, it's only a matter of time before he goes down in a blaze of glory with that attitude.

Jack of Tears said:

That depends. As memory serves, most of the special psyker gear is pretty distinctive. Psychic hoods, force weapons, etc. Those were all fairly big and prominent on the miniatures that had them, as I recall. I don't see any reason why they would any less prominent on an RPG player's character. So unless your psyker player is doing without any kind of special gear to boost his psy powers, there's always some chance that a random NPC will recognize that thing he's carrying as a psyker tool. The dark future of the 41st millennium is not exactly the kind of place where most people would give him the benefit of the doubt, either.

"Well, he IS carrying a large force axe, but maybe it's just something he looted off an enemy and is trying to sell for parts." Yeah, that doesn't happen. In fact, you could have fun persecuting the players who aren't psykers if they happen to be holding something telling that belongs to the psyker player. Nothing cows a rebellious uber-munchkin like the rest of the players telling him to watch out.

Most of the psychic hoods I've seen on minis also seem to involve a lot of cables going into the figure's head, so it doesn't look like the kind of thing you can just "take off" when you're about to enter a small town on some backwater planet.

Also, if people are really as paranoid about psykers as we know they are, it makes a certain amount of sense that they'd have anti-psyker detectors handy. Whether it's the villain's trusted aide (because what good villain isn't a hypocrite?) or the village mutant who gets spat on by all the locals, but who still unfailingly goes running to the mayor when he senses an approaching mutant, in hopes of earning even a single night's respite for himself. There's plenty of reasons why people in the 41st millennium would be on guard for strange psykers. Use them as needed to keep the fear of God in your players.

Steve-O: Keep in mind that Psychic Hoods are Space Marine equipment normally, an Inquisitor may have one, but your talking about an incredibly powerful and high rank Inquisitor than. These would not be common, and quite possibly, not even be noticeable to the general population as such. Naturally also because these are miniature based stuff, in a specific army, its going to be an entirely different playing field. Space Marines really don't care if their Librarians stand out because well... They are Space Marines. Space Marines stand out by default in the first place. This becomes doubly important in the care of mini's, because models have to have distinctive features if they are going to stand out from another model.

As for Force Weapons, similarly I would wonder if any normal population would have any idea what it is. At best your looking at something that simply looks like a normal weapon, but made from rare materials and with some decoration. Stuff tends to be flashy and ornate in the first place, barring being cheap quality mass produced goods, so it might be very hard to distinguish that from just another high class blade. They might get attention based on the obvious quality of it, but not necessarily that "That is a witch! Burn it!". Largely the stuff that distinguishes Psykers in the table top are showy ostentatious stuff; not something they are forced to carry.

Despite the populous's negative views on Psychers, a single witness to those miraculous heals could start a cult or following for the character. Perhaps he gains some unwanted attention or followers who wish to worship him, better yet request that he heal the afflicted members of the flock.

It should be an awkward situation at the very least to have an Inquisitorial Agent atract his own cult, and would likely generate some heat from his superiors, especially if the character is nominated as a planetary saint. And depending on how the situation is handled, the Pyscher (and party) could easily find themselves returning to clean up (read:purge) their own mess, including any they have become attached to.

This is more of a role-play opportunity generated from the characters actions rather than a direct penalty. so hopefully the players will appreciate the non-game-mechanic imposed restrictions. Of course if the Psycher continues on this path, it could eventually all lead to revokation of his sanctioning, possibly sending the campaign spiraling in a differnt direction depending whether the party kills/arrests him or goes rogue.

Rakiel said:

They may not be an extended action, but my GM suggested doing it (the first time it came up in a game), so obviously HE thinks it's allowable. Although I left his game recently, in part because I have little faith in his fairness as a GM, so that should tell you something.

I know that you mentioned that you like to keep your combat close in because they are grittier and that is fair enough but if you find that your psyker shines in this arena then shake it up a bit. I'd be interested to find out what other Careers your other characters have, I know you mentioned an Assassin with good ranged ability so concoct a situation to let him come to the forefront. I had an assassin who used to dominate in close combat to a point that the guardsmen didn't get a look in. So to change things up, I basically lifted the sniper scene from Saving Private Ryan, one of the characters walked out into a deserted war striken town square, he gets shot by a sniper and wounded really badly and falls down in the middle of the square, the other characters take cover, the assassin says "I charge towards the sniper", my response is "You don't know where the shot came from". The sniper fires a shot at the assassin who is standing in the open and hits him for a lot of damage, he ducks into cover and I ask him to give me a perception test but he fails so still doesn't know where the sniper is. In the mean time the guardsmen has taken charge, he tells everyone to keep down and calls to the hit member of the party to play dead. Then usings the concealment skill to slither on his belly out into a firing position, he then uses his his Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) skill to think "if I were this sniper where would I be?". With a success he figures a partially collapsed building across the square would be a likely spot, raising his long-las he is rewarded by seeing the sniper in his sights, calmly he takes the shot and kills the guy. Afterwards everyone patted him on the back and they still recount his story to other players.

In a rather round about way what i'm trying to say is that you might want to try and steer the game to situations where other Careers can shine, for example having a mission where it has a high proportion of information gathering that will take social and research skills. With psykers being held at arms length by most of the imperial populace will mean that other characters will get to step into the limelight.