echem...
Blood Angels Assault Marine... hive tyrant fell on 1st turn. Whole team tryed to stop mass of warriors, hordes, cultists, genestealers, zoanthropes and everything i could muster from nids dex. marine jumppack charged as an act of last desperation, blood frenzy on. HT was suposed to be almost imposible to beat due to number of bodyguards. lasted one turn.
House Ruled EF after that into DH level.
boruta666 said:
House Ruled RF after that into DH level.
Of course, because it's preposterous. Please errata that one away.
Alex
Tidomann said:
Suijin said:
Mostly why people are saying the quick and dirty way to fix is to use the RF from DH/RT.
The RF from RT is the same as deathwatch. It wasn't as bad as most shots would only roll 1d10 for damage, possibly with tearing. Now we have 2d10's for damage with tearing. Now- do NPC's Righteous fury? Because now- a horde tossing out 3d10+2 damage, with a righteous fury has a chance of simply knocking off half of a space marines wounds.
The base rules for it are the same across the systems- I don't think people are complaining that you get a chance for fury, the problem is that in Deathwatch you automatically confirm it against aliens. So in the case of the Tyrant (or half the enemies in the book) you're doing insane amounts of damage. At least with DH/RT (or with Chaos) you have to roll to confirm Righteous Fury, which reduces the impact somewhat.
That said, I'm not a RT expert (played mostly DH), but I've never heard of the auto-confirmation until DW.
The weapons in DW do so much damage anyhow, I don't really know why you'd need the rule, I have already HR'd it out. I see thematically why it's in there (you're better at killing aliens, finding their weak spots, etc) but mechanically it's a bit over the top for me.
As for me, I don't give my NPCs Fury, I'm not that into TPKs.
For all 10 bolts of the heavy bolter to hit you need 10 extra degree of success.
How is this possible?
pee said:
For all 10 bolts of the heavy bolter to hit you need 10 extra degree of success.
How is this possible?
You only need 9 degrees of success, since a standard success gives one hit and then one extra/DoS. So when rolling against 95, you will hit ten times by rolling 01-05. Low chance, but it's there...
Rhazagal said:
pee said:
For all 10 bolts of the heavy bolter to hit you need 10 extra degree of success.
How is this possible?
You only need 9 degrees of success, since a standard success gives one hit and then one extra/DoS. So when rolling against 95, you will hit ten times by rolling 01-05. Low chance, but it's there...
If you have a a BS of 55 and a total modifier of +60 (not unlikely), you even have 25% chance.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Rhazagal said:
pee said:
For all 10 bolts of the heavy bolter to hit you need 10 extra degree of success.
How is this possible?
You only need 9 degrees of success, since a standard success gives one hit and then one extra/DoS. So when rolling against 95, you will hit ten times by rolling 01-05. Low chance, but it's there...
If you have a a BS of 55 and a total modifier of +60 (not unlikely), you even have 25% chance.
Alex
That depends on whether or not you rule a cap on the shot. I personally cap it at 95, even if modifiers would normally take it higher. Just a personal preference
Rhazagal said:
ak-73 said:
Rhazagal said:
pee said:
For all 10 bolts of the heavy bolter to hit you need 10 extra degree of success.
How is this possible?
You only need 9 degrees of success, since a standard success gives one hit and then one extra/DoS. So when rolling against 95, you will hit ten times by rolling 01-05. Low chance, but it's there...
If you have a a BS of 55 and a total modifier of +60 (not unlikely), you even have 25% chance.
Alex
That depends on whether or not you rule a cap on the shot. I personally cap it at 95, even if modifiers would normally take it higher. Just a personal preference
The Ones chosen by the Emperor know no bounds.
Alex
And all of this "the rate of fire" is too much only takes into account when your target doesn't get out of the way of any of the shots. That heavy bolter just tagged the hive tyrant 10 times? Good thing it's the end boss I picked and I gave it Touched by fate, I'll use a few fate points for +10s to my dodge (pretty much extra degrees of success off the bat) and cut that number right down.
Odds are very good a lascannon will righteous fury over and over at 6d10 so it's not a bad weapon to try to one shot the Tyrant with, though again, it can be dodged.
No, personally to gank a big nasty baddy, I'll be using the Hellfire psychic power at push level. At rank 3 (with warp conduit, cause really, why wouldn't you?) you're talking 9d10 damage and an 18 meter radius blast (no dodge because something's Agi bonus would have to be 20 to get out of the way, and of course you'd center the blast on the big baddy). Righteous fury MUCH more likely... for ANOTHER 9d10 damage, etc, etc.
Honestly, the best way to keep your Evil Masterminds alive is to use fodder (also known as hordes) to eat up your marine's ammunition first. Heavy bolter a problem? It can smoke an entire Mag 40 horde in one pull of the trigger? Good thing you only get 20 bursts before you're out of ammo and it takes a rediculously long time to reload that backpack. Tyranid swarms (in particular) grow and adapt. 1st encounter, not enough gribblies, Hive Tyrant rolls poorly on dodge and gets 10 armor piercing explosive coke can sized rounds to the face... next encounter, Hive Fleet Dagon has learned, and swarms the kill team with rippers and hormagaunts... or stat out some Ravenors (who most likely should have unnatural agi and thus, eat more of your marines ammunition), or a regenerating Carnifex... or heck, a regenerating hive tyrant! There are PLENTY of ways to adjust the levels of the baddies rather than taking the MMO way out of things and swinging the nerf bat all over the place to protect the npcs.
As far as RF rule goes, I'm more worried about the big bad villain one shotting my PCs than anything.
A backpack ammo supply has enough ammo for 25 rounds of full auto fire.
So that's only an option if you are willing to run 2 hours of just straight combat.
BrotherHostower said:
And all of this "the rate of fire" is too much only takes into account when your target doesn't get out of the way of any of the shots. That heavy bolter just tagged the hive tyrant 10 times? Good thing it's the end boss I picked and I gave it Touched by fate, I'll use a few fate points for +10s to my dodge (pretty much extra degrees of success off the bat) and cut that number right down.
In my memory (don't have the book right here), Hive Tyrants do not have the dodge skill.
And I agree that DH righteous fury is much more "realistic" to get the PCs powerbalanced against their foes.
If not convinced, you can calculate the average amount of damage a blood angel assault marine rank 3 with flesh render, lightning attack and two weapons wielder inflict with a pair of lightning claws when in blood frenzy: it gets to insane levels of something like 200+ average per round...
And it seems to me that then, chaos Marines with touched by the fate and the same talents as PCs will then be much more deadlier enemies than monstrosities like Carnifexes or hive tyrants, which seems odd to me, as in earlier D&D games where nearly no enemy was more powerful than PC-like enemies (as a Wizard 20th level...).
In my game, I don't want PCs to get bored when not fighting Chaos SM with heavy bolters... Which would be a shame for DW members.
Quileurbist said:
Dodge is a basic skill, so anyone can benefit from it, even if they aren't trained in it.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Quileurbist said:
Dodge is a basic skill, so anyone can benefit from it, even if they aren't trained in it.
Yes it can be used by anyone, but as we all know, unskilled use is at 1/2 agility, so for a Hive Tyrant it is (45/2) 23% to dodge. So even with a roll of 01, the Hive Tyrant is only getting two additional successes.
But overall, it does seem that damage and attacks are out of balanced in Deathwatch, which, unfortunately, is a scaling up problem from Dark Heresy.
We use the House Rule that you only reroll the single 0's not the entire damage. That is bad enough, anything else is silly.
And not rolling fir RF vs Aliens. Against a Hive Tyrant and such you probablywill have a +60 to hit so you automatically hit. The rule doesn't change that much.
Sister Callidia said:
We use the House Rule that you only reroll the single 0's not the entire damage. That is bad enough, anything else is silly.
And not rolling fir RF vs Aliens. Against a Hive Tyrant and such you probablywill have a +60 to hit so you automatically hit. The rule doesn't change that much.
Ditto. It was my understanding that you only reroll the individual die, not the whole damage amount. I didn't think that there was such thing as an automatic hit, however and that 96-00 is always a miss whatever the circumstances. If I'm wrong, then I still think this is a good house rule as you can always miss in combat. I realise that it won't make much difference in this example statistically, but it's great when even the best shooters miss from time to time!
Bad Birch said:
Ditto. It was my understanding that you only reroll the individual die, not the whole damage amount. I didn't think that there was such thing as an automatic hit, however and that 96-00 is always a miss whatever the circumstances. If I'm wrong, then I still think this is a good house rule as you can always miss in combat. I realise that it won't make much difference in this example statistically, but it's great when even the best shooters miss from time to time!
I don't think too many people are saying you will automatically hit, but for figuring out degress of success they are using the modified number to determine the number of degrees. It gets pretty ugly. Oddly enough I don't have too many people using full auto for guns in Dark Heresy. I've had the NPC use full auto on her Strombolter once or twice for effect. I think they generally avoid it to conserve ammo as I am a stickler for it. Most people however seem to get into Melee or hide (one of the techpriests). Only the Metallican Gunslinger scum does any degree of shooting. Even the Guardsman just swings the old chainsword.
Charmander said:
Tidomann said:
Suijin said:
Mostly why people are saying the quick and dirty way to fix is to use the RF from DH/RT.
The RF from RT is the same as deathwatch. It wasn't as bad as most shots would only roll 1d10 for damage, possibly with tearing. Now we have 2d10's for damage with tearing. Now- do NPC's Righteous fury? Because now- a horde tossing out 3d10+2 damage, with a righteous fury has a chance of simply knocking off half of a space marines wounds.
The base rules for it are the same across the systems- I don't think people are complaining that you get a chance for fury, the problem is that in Deathwatch you automatically confirm it against aliens. So in the case of the Tyrant (or half the enemies in the book) you're doing insane amounts of damage. At least with DH/RT (or with Chaos) you have to roll to confirm Righteous Fury, which reduces the impact somewhat.
That said, I'm not a RT expert (played mostly DH), but I've never heard of the auto-confirmation until DW.
The weapons in DW do so much damage anyhow, I don't really know why you'd need the rule, I have already HR'd it out. I see thematically why it's in there (you're better at killing aliens, finding their weak spots, etc) but mechanically it's a bit over the top for me.
As for me, I don't give my NPCs Fury, I'm not that into TPKs.
Auto-confirm on RF isn't the issue, as many times the percentage for confirming would be at least 75% or higher.
The issue comes down to the extra add on damage which is now past the enemies defenses (AP and TB). Rolling a single extra 1d10 as per DH rules vs rolling 2d10+10 tearing (for a heavy bolter) is a large gap difference, mostly due to the chance chance to add even more damage by getting another 10 on one of the extra die.
Suijin said:
Charmander said:
Tidomann said:
Suijin said:
Mostly why people are saying the quick and dirty way to fix is to use the RF from DH/RT.
The RF from RT is the same as deathwatch. It wasn't as bad as most shots would only roll 1d10 for damage, possibly with tearing. Now we have 2d10's for damage with tearing. Now- do NPC's Righteous fury? Because now- a horde tossing out 3d10+2 damage, with a righteous fury has a chance of simply knocking off half of a space marines wounds.
The base rules for it are the same across the systems- I don't think people are complaining that you get a chance for fury, the problem is that in Deathwatch you automatically confirm it against aliens. So in the case of the Tyrant (or half the enemies in the book) you're doing insane amounts of damage. At least with DH/RT (or with Chaos) you have to roll to confirm Righteous Fury, which reduces the impact somewhat.
That said, I'm not a RT expert (played mostly DH), but I've never heard of the auto-confirmation until DW.
The weapons in DW do so much damage anyhow, I don't really know why you'd need the rule, I have already HR'd it out. I see thematically why it's in there (you're better at killing aliens, finding their weak spots, etc) but mechanically it's a bit over the top for me.
As for me, I don't give my NPCs Fury, I'm not that into TPKs.
Auto-confirm on RF isn't the issue, as many times the percentage for confirming would be at least 75% or higher.
The issue comes down to the extra add on damage which is now past the enemies defenses (AP and TB). Rolling a single extra 1d10 as per DH rules vs rolling 2d10+10 tearing (for a heavy bolter) is a large gap difference, mostly due to the chance chance to add even more damage by getting another 10 on one of the extra die.
I dont think that RF should be powered by damage roll. I think the random hit location system should change to a second roll and the "critical" damage rolled for RF (ie, the extra damage) should be the result of a good attack roll, not a good damage roll, like in BRP.
Its one of those things that need to be tweaked in the 40K system, the damage being done. Whether or not TB should be treated as primitive armour. How Righteous Fury works. The removal of the sloppy critical system.