I just noticed this:

Technically size modifiers only apply to ranged combat not melee. The size description says "Size is an important factor when shooting ranged weapons" (page 249), and also the to-hit penalty/bonus chart specifically mentions the +10 bonus as "shooting a Hulking target" (page 247).

Also the modifier to-hit a horde specifically says to treat it like an individual and also only refers to it as a size modifier (which should mean RAW the size modifier only applies to ranged combat also for hordes) (page 359).

So did others notice this?

I can't say that I did, however, I treat them as the same for ranged and melee. It only makes sense.

As others have brought up, page 134 in traits also refers to size and modifiers to-hit and uses the word "combat" instead of just ranged.

DH uses all the same terminology for the relevant sections. The combat section refers only to ranged and the traits section uses "in combat".

Suijin said:

Ask FFG.

Alex

I did, waiting for a reply.

I am interested in what they have to say about it. I would not mind if I am wrong on this. A +60 to hit (thanks to all the stacking modifiers) is a bit overdoing it imo.

Sister Callidia said:

What stacking modifiers? Melee doesn't get +20 for Full Auto and +10 for Short range. You can Charge for +10, but you give up your multiple attacks. You can use All Out Attack, but again, you give up multiple attacks (Furious Assault only gives two total, instead of 3-4 w/ TWW or Lightning attack) and the ability to dodge/parry. Frenzy gives +10, but has its own drawbacks and is not available to everyone. Other than size, there really aren't many stacking modifiers for melee.

And why are the size modifiers ok for ranged but not melee?

Those are the questions to ask. Why does ranged need to be so much better? I agree that in reality ranged would be better. That's why we don't send brigades of swordsmen to war anymore. But, this is a game. In that game, the melee component has always been emphasized as being equal or sometimes better than ranged.

Well as for the reasoning behind hitting at ranged easier, Is a barn easier to hit than a fly? Is a huge mass of people easier to hit than an individual by themselves?

Melee is much trickier to determine whether logically they should get the bonus. A huge single opponent while you may think they are easier to hit in melee from being big and clumsy and lots of places to hit, also have a much longer reach than you, making it very dangerous to get within that range. So you could probably argue either way. You could also say you get no bonus in melee unless you get within the huge opponent's guard with an agility test, at which point you get the bonus. If you fail the test they get an attack on you.

A huge horde in melee still has the individuals who don't want to get stabbed/slashed/bashed/etc. and move back and around to avoid getting hit just like you were fighting an individual. You also still only have the reach of your weapon, which is much easier to avoid than a gunshot through a crowd of people. On the other hand, in the horde, you have the guy behind you pushing you forward when you want to move back away from the sword, making you get skewered much easier.

Mostly, even given any above reasoning, it comes down to balance between melee and ranged, and what the GM thinks should be balanced or what they want the flavor of their game to be.

I have not received a reply from Ross on this matter, but any GM can decide for themselves.

I see no reason tho shift the "To hit" balance in favor of ranged. A warhound titan should be fairly easy to hit in melee. A targets ability to dodge/move around is represented by its agility, and should be left to that. Personally, I see this as just an oversight when writing, and that the spirit of the rules intends for size to be a bonus on everything.

Dev's (Ross Watson) ruling is that it applies to both ranged and melee attacks.

As far as I understood it, you really can only cap at up to +30 and down to -30 to any attack tests. ( I think skill tests don't have this cap.)

So even if you have +60 to hit from modifiers, you still are limited to a +30 cap.

Where did you read this? I thought all skill tests, whether the action was to attack, or use a skill capped at +/-60

In original DH, the cap was +/- 30. Since Ascension and in RT/DW, the cap is +/- 60.

Can anyone site me a reference page in either Rogue trader or Deathwatch?

I am pretty sure I saw combat actions at +/- 30

scrap that, I just saw it

Radomo said:

There are the size modifiers (see Size modifiers by the dexcription of traits)
You are forgetting, aimed attack for +10, friends in melee for up to +20, Best quality weapons that give a bonus to hit, the Talent Double Team, Hatred for a +10.

The +60 is easy to reach for both melee and ranged attacks.

Sister Callidia said:

I listed Size as modifier in my post (read the last sentence). Melee attackers are not going to be aiming much, as you can't Aim and use Multi-attack in the same round. If you're only attacking every other round so that you can aim, you're already waaaay behind.

Friends in melee would apply, but unless the team has multiple Assault marines, it's unlikely to come up all that often. Barring maybe a mid-rank or higher Tech (assuming you tweak the servo-harness to give more than one attack), Apoth, or Librarian, the other marines are much better off just shooting. Added to the fact that the jump pack gives them a huge Charge range (even more with Wings of Angels), and Assault marines will often be the only ones in melee. It's also impossible vs a Horde. +20 also requires the kill team to outnumber the opponent by 3:1.

Double team is limited by the above, and an extra talent that ranged doesn't have to buy.

Best quality weapons require a lot of Renown/Req or Signature talents. The best melee weapons can't even be taken by the signature talents except as common per RAW. A BC power weapon is a lot more expensive than a BC bolter. They are also >= cost of BC Storm Bolters.

Hatred is very limited, and, if you don't either metagame with the GM or just pick poorly, a wasted talent. Again a talent that ranged doesn't have to buy.

This still ignores the fact that Ranged will typically cap without any talents, etc. simply because they get +20 for Full Auto and +10 for Range. Or slap a sight of some sort on. Bolter Mastery. Signature Weapon(bolter) is available right away, and a very good choice, easily upgradeable via mods and craftsmanship. Heck, at Respected grabbing Signature weapon (Storm bolter) is an amazing choice. The best melee weapons cost much more, and are not available until higher Renown.

Not really the intent of this thread, but I will repeat my recommendations for making melee more on par with ranged.

• Melee weapons need some type of 'sight' equivalent wargear (call it, enhanced counterweights or something) to add a to-hit bonus.
• Tearing weapons need to do +1 hit to Hordes similar to explosive weapons, non-stacking with the Power field bonus.
• Signature wargear (master) requires tweaking to allow at least Exceptional Power fist, lightning claws, Thunder hammers.
• Preternatural Speed needs to come sooner than Rank 8. Rank 3-4 maybe.
• Parries by Hordes remove a hit per DoS, not the entire attack, similar to Dodging removing a round of Full Auto.
• Gunslinger equivalent talent for melee.
• Swap the Semi- and Full Auto to-hit bonuses.

You asked for bonusses to hit and I pointed a few of them out. Double team btw, does work against hordes, you just need a buddy. In my team I often find myself alone when the others are charging the enemy! (ps aim is good for low level SM's without multiple attacks)

Plus, you don't always have the option to stay at a safe distance and with some opponents like hordes with autopistols or an heavy weapon for example, you want to get in as fast as possible where it is relative safe.

Sister Callidia said:

Double team only applies when Ganging up, exactly as it says in the talent description. Since you need to outnumber the target at least 2:1 for a Ganging up bonus, I have no idea how you'd possibly outnumber a horde (P.S. Assault marines have multiple attacks from rank 1. For marines with single attacks, they are probably better off Feinting, or their solo attack will just be dodged/parried).

If your Devs and Tacs are charging a horde to prevent damage to themselves, they are making a mistake. Instead of spending a turn or two running/charging and then chipping away at 1-3 Mag a turn, they should just shoot the bloody things and break them. Find some cover, if you're worried about getting shot. Even a mag 60 horde will likely have to take a Break test after a round of shooting. Maybe charging a Tau fire team might be a better idea, but that is the exception, not the rule.

And, it's only safer in melee because the hordes you described have crap all for WS/BS, but get +20 from Full auto and possible range bonus, meaning they have a reasonable chance to hit multiple times. That imbalance is exactly my point.

Radomo said:

No, double team gives bonuses when ganging up on a single opponent, not when outnumbering an opponent. To me that means: attacking the same opponent (which counts as if a single entity in many aspects in case of a horde). And personally I'd say - why not? Two Assault Marines may have trained how to maximize damage on enemies like rebels, hormagaunts, etc. (aka hordes).

Alex

ak-73 said:

The text of Double Team is "When ganging up on an opponent, the character gains an additional +10 bonus to Weapon Skill tests. [...] This bonus is in addition to the normal bonus gained from outnumbering opponents." Ganging up is described on pg 248 as requiring a 2:1 advantage.

You have to qualify for the original Ganging up bonus of +10 by outnumbering the opponent by 2:1 to get the Double Team bonus. Submit a rules query if that still seems unclear, but, imo, it pretty clearly means the character gets an additional bonus when they already qualify for outnumbering the opponent.

Radomo said:

But then again it's a copy and paste from a pre-horde era rulebook, no?

Beyond that I don't submit these kinds of rules queries as I am not really too interested in what the official ruling is. (I was very interested in the official rulings on squad mode abilities though - because the intention behind some the RAW mechanics was unclear to say the least.) I think I might allow it in my games unless I thought hordes were already too underpowered.

Alex